RIPOFF: S. Florida shooting ranges now allow you to shoot ONLY ammo you bought there!
- Thread starter peacefuljeffrey
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DonNikmare
Member
My opinion...if it's about not making enough $ to run the range or even to make a profit then raise session fees. But ripping people with the ammo prices is bad business in my book. I would not go there.
PowderBurn
Member
Banding together like that does smack of collusion. Even if it is perfectly legal, it doesn't sound very American. More like a cartel. Not good for oil prices OR range prices.
I also agree that they should raise session fees rather than skewer you with ammo prices. At least that's being honest about it. I don't expect ranges to have the same ammo prices as Wal-Mart, and I gladly buy another box or two from my range when I run short of what I brought in. But I won't pay another $4-5/box.
I also agree that they should raise session fees rather than skewer you with ammo prices. At least that's being honest about it. I don't expect ranges to have the same ammo prices as Wal-Mart, and I gladly buy another box or two from my range when I run short of what I brought in. But I won't pay another $4-5/box.
Jake
Member
The local indoor range I shoot at simply charges different rates for range time. $10 if you bring your own ammo. $8 if you buy it from them. And they don't care if you buy their targets or use your own.
pauli
Member
personally, i support my local range by... paying the crazy price for range time. i can respect their rule about only using their ammo in rented guns (because they at least notionally have to maintain said guns), but i would be less than pleased were they to require that i purchase ammo from them for use in *my* guns.
but then, i see it as a range first, gun shop second. no idea how the business side works out.
but then, i see it as a range first, gun shop second. no idea how the business side works out.
Absolutely not legal. I'm in the retail awards business. We have a state-wide organization and meet occasionally to view new products, services, equipment etc.
We were told several years ago by a Colorado Dept. of Revenue spokesman (there to answer sales tax questions) to NEVER discuss prices with our competitors. If it were overheard by the wrong people, we could be in violation of anti-trust laws.
If the ranges in your area are colluding on prices, they are breaking the law.
A lot of ranges make poor decisions that cost them money and business. Ganging up with all the ranges in the area and sticking it to the shooters isn't the solution.
Here are some of the poor decisions I see.
1. They don't provide targets for sale. I can't find decent targets around here, and I don't always want to order them from a target company by the hundred. Targets are cheap in bulk and it's a rare shooter who minds paying for a few targets to help a shooting session along. You can charge a reasonable price for a target or two and still make a good percentage on it.
2. They don't provide decently priced ammo. I would just as soon buy ammo from the range, but most try to gouge you on the ammo rather than just make a decent profit. I know what the wholesale prices are, and I'm not going to pay double for a box of ammo in the name of convenience. I RARELY buy ammo at the range because the prices are out of the ballpark. And I'm not comparing to Wal-mart either.
3. They don't have a good showroom and store to back up the range or they price gouge. I'm almost always in a great mood after shooting and you just know that shoppers in a good mood are wonderful for a store. But again, I'm not going to pay $100 too much for something just because I'm in a good mood. And I'm going to lose my good mood if the case only contains 5 rifles and 8 handguns.
4. They don't have proper cleanup facilities. I like to be able to wash my face and hands adequately after coming off the range and before I leave. I DON'T like to do it in facilities that are from the early part of the last century. If I have to climb into my car feeling like I just rolled around in the dirt, I'm not coming back. See # 7 for more on this line.
5. They don't have a lounge with refreshments (I don't mean on the range proper, but close, nice and comfortable). I like to sit down and talk with other shooters, maybe have a coke--didn't have one before shooting cause of the caffeine. Or maybe sit & rest for a bit & have a snack or a drink before continuing the shooting.
6. They don't have an on-site gunsmith. If a gun's going to break, it's probably going to break while being shot. If a shooter can get it fixed on the spot or give it to someone they know right away, they're probably going to jump at the chance.
7. They don't keep the range clean. I hate having to clean up my firing position before I can shoot, and I don't like having a ton of crud transfer off the shooting position onto my hands and then onto my gun.
8. They don't maintain the range. If the individual positions are lighted then the lights need to work. It's really hard to shoot in the dark. If a target holder doesn't work then they shouldn't assign that lane to a shooter.
9. They make stupid rules or don't have enough rules to be safe. I don't want to have my intelligence insulted or have to be constantly on high alert to shoot. I find shooting relaxing, but not when I feel like I'm the only RSO in the place.
Here are some of the poor decisions I see.
1. They don't provide targets for sale. I can't find decent targets around here, and I don't always want to order them from a target company by the hundred. Targets are cheap in bulk and it's a rare shooter who minds paying for a few targets to help a shooting session along. You can charge a reasonable price for a target or two and still make a good percentage on it.
2. They don't provide decently priced ammo. I would just as soon buy ammo from the range, but most try to gouge you on the ammo rather than just make a decent profit. I know what the wholesale prices are, and I'm not going to pay double for a box of ammo in the name of convenience. I RARELY buy ammo at the range because the prices are out of the ballpark. And I'm not comparing to Wal-mart either.
3. They don't have a good showroom and store to back up the range or they price gouge. I'm almost always in a great mood after shooting and you just know that shoppers in a good mood are wonderful for a store. But again, I'm not going to pay $100 too much for something just because I'm in a good mood. And I'm going to lose my good mood if the case only contains 5 rifles and 8 handguns.
4. They don't have proper cleanup facilities. I like to be able to wash my face and hands adequately after coming off the range and before I leave. I DON'T like to do it in facilities that are from the early part of the last century. If I have to climb into my car feeling like I just rolled around in the dirt, I'm not coming back. See # 7 for more on this line.
5. They don't have a lounge with refreshments (I don't mean on the range proper, but close, nice and comfortable). I like to sit down and talk with other shooters, maybe have a coke--didn't have one before shooting cause of the caffeine. Or maybe sit & rest for a bit & have a snack or a drink before continuing the shooting.
6. They don't have an on-site gunsmith. If a gun's going to break, it's probably going to break while being shot. If a shooter can get it fixed on the spot or give it to someone they know right away, they're probably going to jump at the chance.
7. They don't keep the range clean. I hate having to clean up my firing position before I can shoot, and I don't like having a ton of crud transfer off the shooting position onto my hands and then onto my gun.
8. They don't maintain the range. If the individual positions are lighted then the lights need to work. It's really hard to shoot in the dark. If a target holder doesn't work then they shouldn't assign that lane to a shooter.
9. They make stupid rules or don't have enough rules to be safe. I don't want to have my intelligence insulted or have to be constantly on high alert to shoot. I find shooting relaxing, but not when I feel like I'm the only RSO in the place.
Well, they're not quite colluding on prices. Prices haven't been discussed, I'm guessing. But by ALL of them adopting the "shoot it here buy it here" policy on ammo, they now can price their ammo much higher and still sell it. It's sort of an end around on price collusion. Not discussing prices, just making a rule that makes higher prices feasible. It may not be strictly illegal, but it's certainly violating the spirit of the law by trying to control/eliminate competition in at least one respect.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Not a ripoff...
If both parties are familiar with the parameters of the transaction and neither part is misrepresenting the product, then there is no ripoff.
Requiring range ammo and targets be purchased from the range is not a ripoff. It sounds like a really stupid thing to do in regard to the client base, but that is it.
peacefuljeffery, since you went ahead and purchased ammo and targets from the range, then you must not have thought that it was all that much of a ripoff since you agreed to their terms and showed your willingness to spend your money on ammo and targets at the range. The only real vote you get in the business practices of a private company is the vote with your $ and you didn't vote well.
If both parties are familiar with the parameters of the transaction and neither part is misrepresenting the product, then there is no ripoff.
Requiring range ammo and targets be purchased from the range is not a ripoff. It sounds like a really stupid thing to do in regard to the client base, but that is it.
peacefuljeffery, since you went ahead and purchased ammo and targets from the range, then you must not have thought that it was all that much of a ripoff since you agreed to their terms and showed your willingness to spend your money on ammo and targets at the range. The only real vote you get in the business practices of a private company is the vote with your $ and you didn't vote well.
JohnKSa, I believe there is a violation anyway. We were told that merely calling your friendly competitor and asking "what are you charging for a base and figure with engraving?" is a violation of price fixing law. I think the FL dept. of revenue would take a dim view of the business practices going on here.
Anyway, the problem normally fixes itself. All ranges in the area decide to adhere to a particular policy, business drops off for all. One range decides to buck the tide and allow reloads or Wal-Mart ammo or whatever, just to save their cash flow, and their business takes off. The other ranges will follow suit. It is the nature of competition.
Anyway, the problem normally fixes itself. All ranges in the area decide to adhere to a particular policy, business drops off for all. One range decides to buck the tide and allow reloads or Wal-Mart ammo or whatever, just to save their cash flow, and their business takes off. The other ranges will follow suit. It is the nature of competition.
the solution is for the range to sell 'green ammo' and charge an "environmental fee" to anyone who shoots lead.
another solution would be to charge a membership fee, and let those people shoot wolf or wwb, but non-members shoot range ammo only.
another solution would be to charge a membership fee, and let those people shoot wolf or wwb, but non-members shoot range ammo only.
peacefuljeffrey
member
Redneck2 wrote:
Um, could you kindly explain how it is that BEFORE they started doing this, ranges stayed in business for, um, all the decades since the dawn of shooting ranges?
It's rather like the movie theaters showing us advertisements -- which we know are sold to companies like Coca Cola and prescriptions drug makers for TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars -- and still claiming that "costs" necessitate raising the price of a ticket from $7.50 to $8.50.
Don't give me the, "We have to do this to stay in business" stuff, because you were in business decades prior to this and only now are doing it.
Someone just got hungry for more money.
-Jeffrey
Um, could you kindly explain how it is that BEFORE they started doing this, ranges stayed in business for, um, all the decades since the dawn of shooting ranges?
It's rather like the movie theaters showing us advertisements -- which we know are sold to companies like Coca Cola and prescriptions drug makers for TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars -- and still claiming that "costs" necessitate raising the price of a ticket from $7.50 to $8.50.
Don't give me the, "We have to do this to stay in business" stuff, because you were in business decades prior to this and only now are doing it.
Someone just got hungry for more money.
-Jeffrey
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peacefuljeffrey
member
Jake:
I thought about that. They charge TEN dollars for a range fee -- higher than the average anywhere around here. I could see continuing to go there if they raised it a bit more, maybe $12-14, say. But then again,
HOW DO THEY EXPLAIN THE NEW POLICY OF NOT BOTHERING TO AIR CONDITION THE SHOOTING LANES?!
That's another tight- policy they seem to have instituted. The ONLY reason I drove down to Delray in the first place instead of going to Gator Guns right here in friggin' West Palm Beach is that the difference is AIR CONDITIONING. Gator charges something like $7 for the range.
Hmmm, let's see. I could spend $7 for an un-air-conditioned range that is right here (and may or may not have instituted the shoot-here/buy-here rule) and a 7 minute drive away, or go spend $10 at a range with the shoot-here/buy-here rule and is over a half hour away, and could be air-conditioned but they won't run it because it costs too much.
They have successfully removed the reason I started driving farther away to go shoot.
And some of you say that they're doing what their business needs to do to profit? How does making your customers stop spending money with you accomplish that??
-Jeffrey
I thought about that. They charge TEN dollars for a range fee -- higher than the average anywhere around here. I could see continuing to go there if they raised it a bit more, maybe $12-14, say. But then again,
HOW DO THEY EXPLAIN THE NEW POLICY OF NOT BOTHERING TO AIR CONDITION THE SHOOTING LANES?!
That's another tight- policy they seem to have instituted. The ONLY reason I drove down to Delray in the first place instead of going to Gator Guns right here in friggin' West Palm Beach is that the difference is AIR CONDITIONING. Gator charges something like $7 for the range.
Hmmm, let's see. I could spend $7 for an un-air-conditioned range that is right here (and may or may not have instituted the shoot-here/buy-here rule) and a 7 minute drive away, or go spend $10 at a range with the shoot-here/buy-here rule and is over a half hour away, and could be air-conditioned but they won't run it because it costs too much.
They have successfully removed the reason I started driving farther away to go shoot.
And some of you say that they're doing what their business needs to do to profit? How does making your customers stop spending money with you accomplish that??
-Jeffrey
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peacefuljeffrey
member
DoubleNaughtSpie wrote:
Um, let's split hairs on semantics, okay? Rip-off, stupid thing to do... you knew what I was getting at.
Now, as far as me "agreeing" -- no, I was caught in a situation where I was taking a relatively inexperienced shooter out to familiarize her with her new gun as a favor to her, and we decided to make a fun day out of it, so I grabbed all my gear, went out ahead of time and got some reasonably priced ammo, and then found out that this policy had gone into effect. It was either stay, buy a moderate amount of ammo, shoot for a while, not destroy the day's plans (which were executed just a scant few hours before our work shift) and vow to not return, or blow the plans and have wasted an hour's travel time and gas.
I made the best of a bad situation. In no way was I tacitly agreeing that they are treating their customers well or fairly, and not ripping them off.
The big issue here is that they have taken away options that i used to have, and I don't take kindly to that. They about it when the county or the state or EPA or fedgov does it to them, but they are pretty damned quick to jam it up OUR when they feel it will make them a few bucks. This is really hypocrisy at its finest. Squeezing people until they have no options left to do what they wish to do for a fair cost. Where have we seen that before?
P.S. My name is right there to be viewed and verified, if you really are interested in spelling it correctly.
-Jeffrey
Um, let's split hairs on semantics, okay? Rip-off, stupid thing to do... you knew what I was getting at.
Now, as far as me "agreeing" -- no, I was caught in a situation where I was taking a relatively inexperienced shooter out to familiarize her with her new gun as a favor to her, and we decided to make a fun day out of it, so I grabbed all my gear, went out ahead of time and got some reasonably priced ammo, and then found out that this policy had gone into effect. It was either stay, buy a moderate amount of ammo, shoot for a while, not destroy the day's plans (which were executed just a scant few hours before our work shift) and vow to not return, or blow the plans and have wasted an hour's travel time and gas.
I made the best of a bad situation. In no way was I tacitly agreeing that they are treating their customers well or fairly, and not ripping them off.
The big issue here is that they have taken away options that i used to have, and I don't take kindly to that. They about it when the county or the state or EPA or fedgov does it to them, but they are pretty damned quick to jam it up OUR when they feel it will make them a few bucks. This is really hypocrisy at its finest. Squeezing people until they have no options left to do what they wish to do for a fair cost. Where have we seen that before?
P.S. My name is right there to be viewed and verified, if you really are interested in spelling it correctly.
-Jeffrey
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peacefuljeffrey
member
It sure is. It pretends that ranges are not already charging a FEE to use the range, which should be designed to cover them, given that for decades and decades, it was plainly acceptable practice to bring ammo you obtained anywhere else, and fire it at the range you paid to use.
A more apt comparison would be to say that the restaurant already HAS a program in place to charge you a reasonable fee to cook your own eggs and ham, which would be the cost of the electricity PLUS a profit margin, and then says that you now also have to pay that fee PLUS buy their ham and eggs.
When some people want too desperately to win an argument, they resort to making analogies that are not nearly apt.
-Jeffrey
A more apt comparison would be to say that the restaurant already HAS a program in place to charge you a reasonable fee to cook your own eggs and ham, which would be the cost of the electricity PLUS a profit margin, and then says that you now also have to pay that fee PLUS buy their ham and eggs.
When some people want too desperately to win an argument, they resort to making analogies that are not nearly apt.
-Jeffrey
If ALL of the ranges in a relatively large area have gotten together and agreed to adopt this policy then it is a ripoff.
If one range wants to adopt a policy that's one thing. If they adopt a stupid or unreasonable policy it will run them out of business or force them to change their policy when it costs them too much money. But if all of the ranges in an area get together and adopt this policy then it is a ripoff. If you want to shoot then you have only two choices--incur a significant time/gasoline cost to get out of the area of the ranges that have the agreement or pay their prices (whatever they may be). They know it'll be too much of an inconvenience for most people to go out of the county and they'll be able to sell their ammo at much higher prices than normal--or just sell a lot more than normal.
Sort of like all the gas stations in the county getting together and saying that if you buy gasoline from them, you must also buy a carwash as well. If one did that you'd just go down the street to the next one, but if they all get together and agree to do it, then you're going to have to knuckle under or drive out of the county to buy gasoline.
I tend to agree with Mr. Ashcraft--this is illegal or at the very least bordering on illegal.
Zundfolge
Member
That is the absolute truth ... however its pretty clear that this policy will end up costing them more money then it will make them.
Nothing wrong with teaching bad businessmen how business works by spending your money elsewhere ... and based on some of the posts here (one with driving directions even) it looks like these range owners will learn that lesson.
Hopefully for their sake and the sake of the local shooters there, they will learn this lesson before they are out of business.
peacefuljeffrey
member
Makes me wonder if anyone from that range's staff reads this board.
If they do, they should know right now that I won't be buying ammo, targets, guns, knives, cases, CLP -- anything -- from them unless they reverse this policy.
Oh, AND turn the FRIGGIN' A.C. back on!!!!!
-Jeffrey
If they do, they should know right now that I won't be buying ammo, targets, guns, knives, cases, CLP -- anything -- from them unless they reverse this policy.
Oh, AND turn the FRIGGIN' A.C. back on!!!!!
-Jeffrey
Cesiumsponge
Member
I'm done with indoor ranges. Cramped, stuffy, and hot. They won't turn on the A/C at the one I went to either because the fans suck out all the cold air. They seem to cost more than the outdoor ranges here too. One indoor range charges $10 extra for shotguns because apparently it is in their experience that people who use shotguns there hit everything except their targets. The guy then observed through the viewing window of my doing controlled doubletaps with full powered Wolf slugs
Outdoors for me from now on whenever possible and it costs me $5 all day every day as a non-member. I like the fresh air and the open range doesn't concentrate sound like an indoor range. Ironically, it hasn't rained at all in Washington each time I hit the outdoor range so it's been fairly favorable. The only thing I miss are the electric hangers to retrieve your targets *hates waiting for cold range*
Outdoors for me from now on whenever possible and it costs me $5 all day every day as a non-member. I like the fresh air and the open range doesn't concentrate sound like an indoor range. Ironically, it hasn't rained at all in Washington each time I hit the outdoor range so it's been fairly favorable. The only thing I miss are the electric hangers to retrieve your targets *hates waiting for cold range*
cracked butt
Member
Buy a couple of obscure eastern European handguns and walk into the store with a money clip loaded with $20s. pull the money clip out and start to pull a $20 off the clip and then ask them " I see a sign that says I can only use ammunition bought here?" "do you have any ammo for my tokarov/makarov/nagant?" "No?" place money clip back into pocket and walk out of store.
I'm pretty happy I don't have to put up with that stuff. My range is anywhere I want to shoot on my property - picture attached.
Nobody lives within a 1/2 mile of me and and the one that does lives within a mile is not a problem.
You guys have my simpathy !
Nobody lives within a 1/2 mile of me and and the one that does lives within a mile is not a problem.
You guys have my simpathy !
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heypete
Member
The local rifle range doesn't sell ammo, you can use your own targets, but their targets are priced at 50¢ each. Quite reasonable indeed. The only requirement is that you have a chamber-empty flag. If you lack one, they're $1 to rent for the night (open 7pm-10pm), or $2 to buy. Extremely reasonable.
The indoor pistol range charges about 75¢ each for targets, which isn't that bad. The only ammo they have for sale there is PMC stuff. I have my commercial new and commercial reload ammo that I bring up there, and that's fine with them. Only condition is no steel-core, as it'll damage their backstop. Their ammo prices are high, but not out of the ballpark. Still, paying 2x for PMC? I don't think so.
Local gun shop has Wolf 7.62x39 for $230/1000rds. I can get it for $88+shipping (works out to be about $100) online. Absolutely outrageous ripoff -- I wouldn't mind paying $100-$120, but more than twice the wholesale price? Not worth it. I buy all my ammo online, as there's not a Wal-Mart near here to get ammo at, and I wouldn't buy ammo from Wal-Mart anyway.
The indoor pistol range charges about 75¢ each for targets, which isn't that bad. The only ammo they have for sale there is PMC stuff. I have my commercial new and commercial reload ammo that I bring up there, and that's fine with them. Only condition is no steel-core, as it'll damage their backstop. Their ammo prices are high, but not out of the ballpark. Still, paying 2x for PMC? I don't think so.
Local gun shop has Wolf 7.62x39 for $230/1000rds. I can get it for $88+shipping (works out to be about $100) online. Absolutely outrageous ripoff -- I wouldn't mind paying $100-$120, but more than twice the wholesale price? Not worth it. I buy all my ammo online, as there's not a Wal-Mart near here to get ammo at, and I wouldn't buy ammo from Wal-Mart anyway.
english kanigit
Member
Somebody's panties have gotten just a little twisted.....
Jeff, if you don't like the range's policies, talk to them about changing said policies. If they refuse, it's done. Take your money and yourself elsewhere.
You can tell other people about your bad experiences if you wish, but ranting and raving on the internet will probably not accomplish much.
At the range I frequent, they only have the 'higher quality' ammo and range reloads. The prices aren't the best I've seen but they could certainly be worse. They do permit you to bring your own ammo but they reserve the right to inspect anyone's ammo and if it's not to their liking, refuse their business. The rifle backstop caught fire about 6 months ago and it had been out of commission since. That's easily 1/3 of the ranges business that it is unable to make money off of.
Even so, I love the place. The service is good, the staff is safe, smart and friendly and the owner himself has taken care of my only safety concern so far.
That said, their transfer fees suck. The fee itself is $20, plus shipping (understandable), plus 10% of the price. I haven't bought a gun through them and I'm kinda leery of doing so...
I dunno. Make your own decisions. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Jeff, if you don't like the range's policies, talk to them about changing said policies. If they refuse, it's done. Take your money and yourself elsewhere.
You can tell other people about your bad experiences if you wish, but ranting and raving on the internet will probably not accomplish much.
At the range I frequent, they only have the 'higher quality' ammo and range reloads. The prices aren't the best I've seen but they could certainly be worse. They do permit you to bring your own ammo but they reserve the right to inspect anyone's ammo and if it's not to their liking, refuse their business. The rifle backstop caught fire about 6 months ago and it had been out of commission since. That's easily 1/3 of the ranges business that it is unable to make money off of.
Even so, I love the place. The service is good, the staff is safe, smart and friendly and the owner himself has taken care of my only safety concern so far.
That said, their transfer fees suck. The fee itself is $20, plus shipping (understandable), plus 10% of the price. I haven't bought a gun through them and I'm kinda leery of doing so...
I dunno. Make your own decisions. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
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I disagree. I think this sort of thing is EXACTLY what is needed to get their attention. We have been fighting this locally on our club board for a while and those few people are aware for sure. Now we have people outside the club I belong to that live in PB that are becoming aware. One shooter even states above that he does indeed drive down to Broward to shoot rather than be held hostage. I do agree that taking your money elsewhere is part of the solution but communicating amongst other shooters about tactics like this will really help speed that process along.
Greg
- Status
