Role of the 12 Gauge Shotgun in Warfare (2016)

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Shotguns

We had them in Nam Savage Stevens 12 ga with the disconnector modified, just hold the trigger and pump used mainly for guard duty . My buddy who was in the marines said they used them on patrol in the bush and were very deadly.
 
I have to disagree with some here, I think the shotgun has been on its way out since probably the Pacific Campaign during WWII and perhaps Vietnam. I can see a use for door-breaching/house clearing but most soldiers are using and used to, the M16/M4 platform. I can see a use for security type roles, guard-house duty, ship-board searches, and so on. Like rcmodel, I think for jungle use, heavy dense underbrush where you can only see 1-10 yards, a shotgun would excel. Not to mention a shotgun is a great defense weapon for the home-owner.

TruthTellers I have to say, the part about your moms ex-BF carrying a cut-down, SxS, in a shoulder holster,that seems highly unlikely and unusual. But I guess, never say never?
 
giggitygiggity said:
That's very odd. I've never heard of having to call a SCUBA team to retrieve live rounds. Perhaps they do that when in port and not at sea. I was firing an M16 full auto on a sub a few years ago. When it'd get hung up, the one sailor would yank the mag out and toss it into the water (rounds and all). He did this with about 3 mags. I thought it was kind of wasteful. This was outside if Point Loma.

I also saw sailors dumping thousands of pieces of brass (9mm, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, and .50) and empty ammo cans into the Atlantic. As a reloader, I was mortified.
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Yes in port on Guard Duty. I should have specified.

He didn't mention anybody tossing mags overboard but I would not be surprised.

Too bad about all that brass... :eek:
 
Early 1970's stateside guard on an ammo site I was given a pump shotgun.

Training consisted of "Any of you guys ever hunted or shot skeet or trap with a 12 gauge pump?" Ammo was 00 Buck and they gave us ten rounds. Four in the tube six in the pockets. Apparently it was believed that the shotgun would not be a danger nearly as far as an M-16A1 and the firing inside the ammo sight would bring the better armed external guard into play. It did make me feel better armed than an angle head flash light, clip board and night stick which is what each of the other four guys in each five man detail got.

We asked for them repeatedly on armed gate guard positions in Europe. We never got them and had to depend on the M-16A1 and/or 1911A1

-kBob
 
As an eccentric Army Officer, I always thought the 590 would be an excellent E7 and up sort of platform to compliment the M9. Your platoon and company leadership should not be ENGAGING in firefights, they should be DIRECTING firefights, with their personal weapons held in case positions are overrun, etc. The close range firepower of a 12 ga is quite comforting.
 
I saw a lot of M-79 grenade launchers. No shotguns. We wanted to kill them beyond 30 yards. The farther away the better. Not to say they were never used. Our M-16 were full auto capable. It never occurred to me to limit range. Range was our big advantage over the AK. I'd hate to have somebody shooting at me beyond 40 yards which was usually the case and me with a shotgun.
 
We still used them on boarding teams in USCG rem 870 I believe 14in barrel
OObuck and slugs were issued, great tool for boarding a inspecting Ship and
small platforms.
 
CaptTripps said:
I have to disagree with some here, I think the shotgun has been on its way out since probably the Pacific Campaign during WWII and perhaps Vietnam. I can see a use for door-breaching/house clearing but most soldiers are using and used to, the M16/M4 platform. I can see a use for security type roles, guard-house duty, ship-board searches, and so on. Like rcmodel, I think for jungle use, heavy dense underbrush where you can only see 1-10 yards, a shotgun would excel. Not to mention a shotgun is a great defense weapon for the home-owner.

TruthTellers I have to say, the part about your moms ex-BF carrying a cut-down, SxS, in a shoulder holster,that seems highly unlikely and unusual. But I guess, never say never?
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Since he was a former Captain in the Army Rangers and then as an E-9 while deployed as a National Guardsmen, I think it played a factor in determining what he could choose to carry :D. One time while escorting a team of Seal's to "close" to the Iranian border he tried to make a trade with one of them for an M1 Garand one Seal was using as his primary. Seal wasn't into trading that Garand for anything.

The only other non traditional military gun he used while over there was the Dragonuv and he loved that thing.

But yeah, never say never.
 
I'm sorry but this reeks of bad comic book writing. He was a Cpt. in the US Army Rangers but retired and joined the NG. Making his way to CSM. He carried a cut-off SxS in shoulder holster. Another time, on a mission to escort SEALS to the Iranian border (I find it hard to believe a qualified SEAL team would rely on NG for anything except lolz), he tried to trade for the GARAND the SEAL was carrying. a 60+ year old battle implement. Not the M14, the M1. I don't believe it.

The Dragunov is a non-traditional military gun, it what sense exactly? It has been in production as a squad DMR rifle since it was introduced in 1963. It is used or has been used by over 30 countries, many communist or friendly with communist countries. Which we happen to be facing through direct and proxy wars. I would say it is pretty common and traditional military SLR.
 
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My mom had an ex-bf who was an E-9 CSM who did a tour in Afghanistan back in the mid 2000's. The only shotgun he ever carried there was a sawed off side by side that he kept in a shoulder holster. Only time he said he used it was to shoot a cobra that was ready to strike.
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Son, I hope you don't believe that nonsense!

Since he was a former Captain in the Army Rangers and then as an E-9 while deployed as a National Guardsmen, I think it played a factor in determining what he could choose to carry . One time while escorting a team of Seal's to "close" to the Iranian border he tried to make a trade with one of them for an M1 Garand one Seal was using as his primary. Seal wasn't into trading that Garand for anything.
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And now I need to roll up my pant legs. I'd venture to say this guy is a hoot to have some beers with.
 
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I once read that a couple of Tromix-modified Saiga 12's made it to Iraq. One was mostly used for stopping car bombs with 12 gauge slugs to the engine block, and another for dealing with ambushes. They were called the "Ambush Buster" and the "VBIED Killer".
 
TruthTellers said:
Since he was a former Captain in the Army Rangers and then as an E-9 while deployed as a National Guardsmen
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I only served four years on active duty, so I'm not a military expert by any means, but I've never heard of anyone going from being an officer to being enlisted. That, combined with his other odd stories, just makes this guy reek of Stolen Valor...
 
I haven't heard of AP shotgun rounds either. Sure is thick in here.
 
"Since he was a former Captain in the Army Rangers and then as an E-9 while deployed as a National Guardsmen, I think it played a factor in determining what he could choose to carry . One time while escorting a team of Seal's to "close" to the Iranian border he tried to make a trade with one of them for an M1 Garand one Seal was using as his primary. Seal wasn't into trading that Garand for anything."


:what:
 
I am sure some have been devised.

I remember seeing special twelve gauge rounds designed for urban war some time ago, and they were quite impressive. One was capable of stable flight for some hundreds of yards and then explode and become some kind of a fragmentation grenade. The idea was to shoot it through a window and it would kill everyone on the other side without destroying the building. The projectile deployed some wings once it exited the barrel to enhance its flight stability.

I just can't remember in which context I saw that, it was, as I said, some time ago. I have no idea if that round has ever been issued. It might have been experimental stuff. It could have been when I searched for emergency flair rounds, the internets are so full of magic.
 
They were fairly common is Vietnam. As RC said, the ranges in the true jungle were often point blank and the shotgun excelled in that type of engagement. I did a Thesis on some special ops teams during the Vietnam era and often they had at least one team member with a shotgun but I do not recall what brand. Definitely pump.
 
Theohazard said:
I only served four years on active duty, so I'm not a military expert by any means, but I've never heard of anyone going from being an officer to being enlisted. That, combined with his other odd stories, just makes this guy reek of Stolen Valor...
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He was 48 at the time he was deployed so he had long been away from active duty Army service and he hated being an officer. I believe he switched back in the early 90's to NG and worked his way up to CSM.

As for the story that they wouldn't use National Guard to escort Seals I disagree. This was Afghanistan and we were stretched very thin back in 2004-05. They were using whatever troops they had where they were stationed. His main role was to train Afghan soldiers and they may have been part of the transport/escort team. I can't remember, it's been 10 years since I last heard the details.
 
"He was 48 at the time he was deployed so he had long been away from active duty Army service and he hated being an officer. I believe he switched back in the early 90's to NG and worked his way up to CSM.

As for the story that they wouldn't use National Guard to escort Seals I disagree. This was Afghanistan and we were stretched very thin back in 2004-05. They were using whatever troops they had where they were stationed. His main role was to train Afghan soldiers and they may have been part of the transport/escort team. I can't remember, it's been 10 years since I last heard the details."

..........................:rolleyes:
 
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Frostbite, I am pretty sure you are talking about an M-79 grenade launcher, they look something like a shotgun. They were very common in Nam. Usually squad leaders or junior NCO's carried them along with another firearm. I know a few people carried shotguns but it was very uncommon and not in regular units.
 
In the past months I've seen Mossberg shotguns in use by gate guards. That's all I've seen though.
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I'm certain the main reason they might be used on gate guard is so any rounds fired at anyone trying to breach the base- that miss- will run out of steam faster than rifle rounds.

I spent a few months on my 06-07 Afghan vacation attached to first ODA groups from 3rd and then 7th Group. 3rd had at least two fairly standard shotguns, one a Serbu they took for breaching on raids, the other one of the common military style autoloaders they kept in the HMMVW for close range crowds. They also had some double-barreled piece of sawed-off junk that I think they'd bought locally.

Saw some good gear. Knights, accurized M14, 3rd even had a PPsH-41 that the armorer told me he would have taken on raids, if they only had 7.62x25mm ammo in stock. What the real go-fast guys, who could have used about anything, carried were short-barreled M4s with Eotechs.

But no Garands. I can believe just about all of the other tallish parts of the tale, but the Garand makes it 100% certifiable fishing story.

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Frostbite appears to be talking about the specialty slugs from The Expendables. FRAG-12 shells really do exist, Veronica, but the HE just blows through .25" or so of armor plate. It doesn't, can't explode with enough power to clear a room.
https://youtu.be/cQYp9fOJ9VI
John
 
I had a CSM that had made it as far as Major in VN. Only about 10% of those who received Battle field commissions during the was were able to retain them when the war ended. In the 80s there were many senior NCOs who had been officers before being returned to their previous rank, plus any promotions they would have earned had they not been given a battlefield commission, running around.
 
My last platoon had 9 shotguns short barreled M500's that were only used by breaching, the battalion commanders body guards when on the ANA compound, and by the medics when guarding our P.A. when she showered.
 
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