peacebutready
Member
In areas where hollow points are not allowed for carry, how much better is truncated cone over round nose in calibers .45 and 9mm?
Round nose FMJ vs. Truncated cone FMJ
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Probably not a whole lot.
In revolver hunting calibers, the flat point semi-wadcutter is proven to be superior.
But the TC in auto pistols doesn't appear do much more then a RN would.
In non-HP locations I would look at Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/mobile/article.php?id=22626
rc
In revolver hunting calibers, the flat point semi-wadcutter is proven to be superior.
But the TC in auto pistols doesn't appear do much more then a RN would.
In non-HP locations I would look at Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/mobile/article.php?id=22626
rc
peacebutready
Member
For revolver hunting, I'm surprised the straight wadcutter apparently isn't used. the meplat is wide.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Not enough Sectional Density for longer shots, or deep bone crushing penetration.
Full WC works most excellently on small game at close range.
It doesn't work so good on big game at longer range.
rc
Full WC works most excellently on small game at close range.
It doesn't work so good on big game at longer range.
rc
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
This, and it loses velocity quickly and accuracy isn't much to write home about when pushed to magnum-level speeds. I've dabbled with it, and the overall results weren't at all satisfactory.
Phaedrus/69
Member
In gelatin the flat meplat bullets remain pointed forward and penetrate better than round nose from what I have seen. I've read but can't confirm that they also do more tissue damage in living things.
jrumsey
Member
I would take a look at the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator. It looks pretty good in gel testing for a non hollow point design.
Here is a link
http://www.lehighdefense.com/our-technology/xtreme-penetrator
Here is a link
http://www.lehighdefense.com/our-technology/xtreme-penetrator
JTQ
Member
Here is an article on big game rifle hunting bullets and how bullet shape affects penetration through tissue.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
Since you're asking about .45ACP and 9mm, I'll assume your focus is carry/HD rather than hunting.
It's not like auto rounds with a truncated cone have big meplats. I'd be shocked if it made a difference at all. I'd let other factors (cost, how hot the loading is, accuracy, reliability, etc...) be the determining factors. Not ball/truncated.
As remodel said, if you can legally use Federal EFMJ (sometimes also marketed as Guard Dog), that would be the best option.
It's not like auto rounds with a truncated cone have big meplats. I'd be shocked if it made a difference at all. I'd let other factors (cost, how hot the loading is, accuracy, reliability, etc...) be the determining factors. Not ball/truncated.
As remodel said, if you can legally use Federal EFMJ (sometimes also marketed as Guard Dog), that would be the best option.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Several years ago, I did some testing with the then-new Hornady .45 230 grain TC and 230 ball loaded to the same average velocities. The TC penetrated a little deeper, and there was a little difference in the wound channel...but not enough to make any real difference in terminal performance.
peacebutready
Member
@1911Tuner: Excellent info. Thanks.
Johnny_B_Goode
member
I would say the flat nose will do more damage. But not many manufacturers make a flat nose 9mm. I would rather bet my life on a CCI stinger than WWB ammo. Across the board round nose ammo is more reliable than flat nosed ammo unless you have a pistol with a tube feed magazine like a 30/30 lever action.
481
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That and round-nose bullets tend to yaw/tumble a little more which might cause a little more damage when the bullet assumes a sideways orientation, but it is probably a minor difference.
Hangingrock
Member
Jeff Cooper favored the Hornady 230Gr TC FMJ over the standard 230Gr FMJ Ball but then what did he know. (Just Being Snide)
Johnny_B_Goode
member
Exactly what did Cooper favor the flat nose FMJ for? With quality ammo flat nose bullets are great for punching holes in paper.
There are a couple manufacturers who make JSP ammo for the 9mm. Then we have the guard dogs. I do not know what is out there for a 45 acp.
I do know that trauma surgeons who have stitched up hundreds of gunshot wounds cannot tell the difference in a 9mm FMJ wound and a 10mm gold dot wound. All that is important is adequate penetration and shot placement. Human flesh does not behave like ballistic gelatin. Human flesh is elastic or it stretches. Commonly carried pistols do not create hydrostatic shock. They just poke holes in goblins, very small holes when compared to an adequate rifle or shotgun. Pistol rounds take an attacker down by loss of blood or a lucky shot to the CNS system. Unless you are very fortunate head shots are out of the question.
In areas where you cannot use a hollow point I would use Winchester 124gr NATO ammo. The NATO rounds function very well in any pistol in good condition. The extra velocity helps overcome the clumsy nature of the FMJ bullet. NATO ammo has enough velocity to penetrate common barriers.
Magtech makes a 124gr JSP round for a 9mm. I have had sketchy results with Magtech ammo. Magtech is the only ammo I have seen that will jam up a Ruger Blackhawk. After the experience with the Blackhawk I have not trusted Magtech products.
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kBob
Member
Back when the service was looking at the M9 and just doing some troop tests with it the USAF got some TC bullets made up by Hornady ( who made them for the public for a while as well as the .45 230 grain referenced above). The USAF recommended that shape over RN FMJ after their tests as they found it did more damage in the test materials of the time. As a reader of all things Cooper-ish I bought some of the .45 230grain TCs to play with. They did do more damage to the sort of "mediums" I had access too.....modeling clay and a clay embankment....than The same loads behind a W-W 230grain RN FMJ.
Never got to shoot one at a critter though.
Interesting to note that some German WWI era 9x19 mm was loaded with TC and when the Italians down loaded the round for their Galiesee (SP?) they chose a TC bullet as well.
I believe W-W loads a TC bullet in .380 thee days.
BTW when a .38/.357 is fired in to ballistic gell it tends to have a smaller permanent crush cavity than anything other than a round nose or so close to a round nose as to be no different. In speaking with Dr. Fackler, he told me he was curious as to why this was so as he had like most of us assumed that with the flat point and sharp full caliber shoulder it would be more destructive.
He made several shots on gel laced with sand. He found that while the meplat or flat nose of the recovered SWCs were engraved and degraded by the sand that the full caliber shoulders were not eroded by the sand at all. His theory was that the nose struck and was eroded but its passage formed the temporary wound cavity to form so that there was no contact with the bullets full caliber shoulder.
This discussion took place at a club event where we were shooting balloons. The balloons were stuck in an ten inch hole in the COM of an old Florida eight card board target. Timer start one shot and balloon burst. no alibies just one shot do or die. Shoot until you miss single elimination last man standing prize and best time prize. My turn came up and I was shooting a 1917 S&W with 230 grain RNL. BZZZZ! fired my shot. Balloon just stood there and grinned at me. I insisted we go down range, the whole seven meters (this was our way of shooting up close without metal plate splash back and putting on a reactive show for some spectators). There was one half moon .45 hole on the target at the 3 oclock position of the hole......and an inch long stripe of lube and Unique smudge on the balloon at that point. Dr. Fackler was delighted by the event for he was arguing with some folks that organs could be grazed by pistol pullets and not cut or bursts. He took pictures of the balloon in place, in the hands and took the balloon home. It got us talking about SWC bullets......
Oh and they let me keep shooting as that darned balloon should have popped!
-kBob
Never got to shoot one at a critter though.
Interesting to note that some German WWI era 9x19 mm was loaded with TC and when the Italians down loaded the round for their Galiesee (SP?) they chose a TC bullet as well.
I believe W-W loads a TC bullet in .380 thee days.
BTW when a .38/.357 is fired in to ballistic gell it tends to have a smaller permanent crush cavity than anything other than a round nose or so close to a round nose as to be no different. In speaking with Dr. Fackler, he told me he was curious as to why this was so as he had like most of us assumed that with the flat point and sharp full caliber shoulder it would be more destructive.
He made several shots on gel laced with sand. He found that while the meplat or flat nose of the recovered SWCs were engraved and degraded by the sand that the full caliber shoulders were not eroded by the sand at all. His theory was that the nose struck and was eroded but its passage formed the temporary wound cavity to form so that there was no contact with the bullets full caliber shoulder.
This discussion took place at a club event where we were shooting balloons. The balloons were stuck in an ten inch hole in the COM of an old Florida eight card board target. Timer start one shot and balloon burst. no alibies just one shot do or die. Shoot until you miss single elimination last man standing prize and best time prize. My turn came up and I was shooting a 1917 S&W with 230 grain RNL. BZZZZ! fired my shot. Balloon just stood there and grinned at me. I insisted we go down range, the whole seven meters (this was our way of shooting up close without metal plate splash back and putting on a reactive show for some spectators). There was one half moon .45 hole on the target at the 3 oclock position of the hole......and an inch long stripe of lube and Unique smudge on the balloon at that point. Dr. Fackler was delighted by the event for he was arguing with some folks that organs could be grazed by pistol pullets and not cut or bursts. He took pictures of the balloon in place, in the hands and took the balloon home. It got us talking about SWC bullets......
Oh and they let me keep shooting as that darned balloon should have popped!
-kBob
Hangingrock
Member
Jonny B Goode since Cooper is long dead it would be rather difficult to ask him directly but I'll note that he expounded on the subject. The series of books Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip (Vol 1 702 pages, Vol 2 1142 pages, and Vol 3 599 pages) the subject of the Hornady 230Gr TC FMJ over the standard 230Gr FMJ Ball is mentioned. Good luck in finding the reference page numbers.
Round nose bullets usually feed better. The original idea that a flat point is better is that it will do more crushing damage than a round nose. At handgun velocities in 9mm and 45ACP I doubt there is much difference.
But in 45 ACP you can push a 200 gr FPJ faster than a 230 fmj round nose. If your gun will feed it, 200 gr fpj pushed close to 1000fps is a good mix of speed and weight.
But in 45 ACP you can push a 200 gr FPJ faster than a 230 fmj round nose. If your gun will feed it, 200 gr fpj pushed close to 1000fps is a good mix of speed and weight.
peacebutready
Member
It would be interesting to read the results of an experiment firing round nose and flat nose ammo fired with the pistol held at different angles. Reliable feeding in a pistol held straight is one thing. Reliable feeding at odd angles is another.
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