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Rude awakening

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Malice

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Joined
Aug 26, 2004
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370
Location
San Antonio, Houston, depending on my mood
So I was at my buddy's ranch yesterday. We were doing some shooting for the first time in a while.

At one point we were hand-throwing clays and busting them with my 18.5" "home defense" 870.

I decided to get a damage report on the load I keep in my shotgun while its under the bed at home. We hauled a discarded shutter from the dump and placed it against the backstop.

This is a long, wide, 1/2 in thick sheet of wood, of unknown type. Not plywod or particle board. Not a particularly hard wood either.

I load the 870 up with my #4 "Nitro Pheasent" shot, which I keep in the gun because I live in an apartment with neghibors on literaly 3 sides of me, including right across the hall from my front door.

I hit the shutter at about 10 yards, and it pops up in the air and tumbles to the ground in a fairly violent fashion. Cool, seems effective enough. I go downrange to check the damage.

The pattern was good; about 1 foot square, nice and tight. But, to my suprise, all of the shot was embedded in the wood; it didnt penetrate the soft wood at 10 yards.

Needless to say, the 00 buck put 9 ragged holes in a 6" square pattern...

What do I do!? Is there a middle ground between where I am and 00 buck? Or do I just have to make the tough choice and hope for the best?
 
good to see that you are actually testing your home defense load,

but dude, a ounce of #4 birdshot in the chest will give the bad guy a real bad day... shallow penetration or not.

if you want realistic tests, try to get a hold of a animal carcas. if there is a local slaughterhouse go there and talk to someone, try to get a pig carcas. sometimes the slaughter house will have a pig that is spoiled, and they cant process. pig tissue is very simmilar to human tissue.

try using heavier shot like #2 bird shot, BB size shot would be devastating too.

if you want to go with buckshot use frangible stuff, or you can use smaller buckshot sizes, 00 is fine, but in an apartment i would worry about over penetration...

many also prefer #4 buckshot. this shell gives you 27 .25 caliber pellets.
as opposed to OO buckshot, loaded with 8 or 9 .32 caliber pellets
---a happy middle ground between birdshot and 00, if you will...

whatever you use, figure out what kind of walls your apartment has, buy some of that material and test the pellets on it too.
i know for a fact OO buck will penetrate drywall and plywood, i dont know about #4 buckshot or bird shot

time to get a shootin'

also, your 870 has a cylinder barrel dosent it?

remington's shotgunshell line up
notice the BB size shot loads?
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/upland/express_extra-Long_range.asp).
 
Seriously, shoot dirt.

Mr. Givens recently shared in a Rangemaster Newsletter, something I grew up being mentored - and I was born in the mid 50's.

Mentors and Elders were doing this before I was born, and I have continued doing so, and passing forward myself.

I know of Bullet and Ammo Mfgs that do this "Shoot Dirt" test/

This applies to any projectile(s) fired from handgun, rifle or shotgun.
What folks wanted to know, was how bullets actually held up and performed, whether this were bullets being cast , or factory bullets, or factory ctgs.

Working up loads, recipes and the whole bit.
Scary part is, recovered bullets /pellets/ slugs from this "shoot dirt" , mirrored those actually recovered from game!
Folks kept notebooks and bullets and compared.


The largest organ of the human body is skin, or integumentary system.
It is elastic, this organ is designed to protect the human anatomy and physiology, basically the first line of defense if you will.

Then we have other systems such as muscular, skeletal, respiratory, endocrine...etc.

We called it for fun Scientific Mud/Dirt Test (SM/DT). Here is what you do.


-Get a cardboard box,
-Fill with whatever dirt is handy.
-Mix in some old bones, from chicken, ham, whatever from leftovers or the like. ( this is to replicate bones, which can and do deflects projectiles).
-Stretch, over the front a heavy duty trash bag, or old vinyl poncho, or similar to replicate skin.

Shotgun, get a paper plate, these are about 9" in diameter, and make this your target.
Why?
Hold a plate over your COM and look in the mirror.

Now add one yard to the longest distance you will have to shoot in your apt ( any residence or business) and shoot that paper plate.

1. Note the pattern of pellets.
2. One can determine performance of pellet/slugs, and depth of penetration, and deflection of projectiles in that media ( dirt) with bones .

This addresses projectile performance, in "critters".
Applicable as I shared with handgun and rifle projectiles as well.

Yes, it is more difficult to determining depth, the reality is, the length of box assists here, (contained in , or pass through?), and what I and mine wanted to know if a load for instance passed through the "critter" and how projectiles performed and held up, and pattern/ slug groups.

Go stand against the wall, with a ruler and one end against the wall and see how deep you are at your deepest .

Now measure yourself across chest - widest part.
Go look at a Picture of Human Anatomy & Physiology and see where organs are, look at them and then yourself, from straight on, from the back, sides and at angles.
Remember, not every presentation is "flat" instead most will have some angle to them, which affects distance to vitals.

Yes this works, and has for a long time.
If one keeps all pellets in that dinner plate, at the longest distance expected plus one yard...


HTH

Steve
 
"Hope for the best" never appeals to me unless it's preceded by "prepare for the worst."

I think you've mixed apples and space ships with your test. You want a payload that will stop an attacker but not penetrate your walls, such as they are, and maybe injure an innocent person. So you need to make two kinds of tests: one with media that replicates an attacker as much as possible, the other with media that replicates the materials used for the partitions between you and your neighbor.

I'd use scrap wallboard for the second medium. If you're a hunter, there's your first medium. Other people here should be able to suggest other possibilities.
 
Anything that doesn't penetrate drywall/sheet rock reliably will also not reliably put an intruder down. Not unless you're attacked by sheet rock golems.

Or to put it another way, #4 is for pheasants. They weigh what, 20 lbs at most? If the load is designed for a 20 lb bird, why do you think it would work on a 200 lb human?

Use 00 buck, train with it, and pray you never have to use it.

Worst case scenario with birdshot is the bad guy gets a shot off and kills a loved one, or me, because the birdshot wasn't instantly incapacitating.

Worst case scenario with buckshot is I miss and I hurt or kill a neighbor. At least my daughter, my wife and myself are still alive, and even if I get sued and lose my belongings or go to jail, at least I've protected the most important things in my life, my family. I can still start over and make more money, or rejoin my family after I get out of prison. I can do those things because I'm alive, and they're still alive.

Edit: Now I'm not condoning violence or that you should be looking to "put a cap in somebody". The fact of the matter though, is that if I ever have to pull the trigger, it's because there are no options left to me. I've called 911 but the cops aren't here yet, I've shouted to the intruder that I am armed and that he should desist, but he's still busted down the door to my bedroom and now he's facing the barrel of my shotgun. If he does not comply with my order to drop the weapon and hit the ground, and instead makes a sudden movement, I'm going to pull the trigger. God forbid I ever get to that point, but if I do, I want a load that will incapacitate him immediately. I don't want to give him a bad day, I want him neutralized ASAP. Even if it means he might die.

Cameron
 
This research has already been done, check out the box of truth link above. Truth is that any round with a hope of stopping a determined intruder is going to have more penetration than any of us would like. This is why some of the experts now suggest an AR15 type rifle with varmint rounds for such locations as yours. It gives the greatest possible stopping power with the least over penetration.
 
A 12 guage shotgun loaded with high velocity #4 shot at inside the home distances will put a damper on a bad guys intentions, quickly.

If I were living in an apartment with neighbors behind two layers of drywall, I'd have serious second thoughts about useing buckshot, even the smaller, lighter #4 buckshot.

I think the game bird mentioned should have been the Turkey, a true 20# + bird and the distances involved in taking him is normally in the 15/45 yard range. Probably more turkeys are missed at the short ranges because the shot pattern is so small (and dense) that even a slight sight misalignment equates to a missed bird.

Several years ago in my home state a bitter divorce ended with the Judge granting a woman a divorce from her estranged husband, as she exited the courthouse her husband stepped from behind a column and shot her in the back with a shotgun and #4 shot I believe. The shot cup (wadding) stopped in her bra. The distance was about 10 feet.
 
Folks,

No disrespect to anyone here or anyone doing testing shared on Internet.

Here is the deal, one has to Investigate & Verify their guns, loads with the environment they will be in.

There were no gun schools back in the day, the only training one received being a LEO, or in the Military.
No 911, No Internet, and even back in 50's, 60's and since, folks have parroted what they themselves have not actually investigated and verified.

The Reality is, there is no Absolutes.

I have worked in the main OR, and seen the fellow live, that stuck a .357 medium frame revolver, with .357 loads in his mouth, and trip trigger - live.
Ditto for those shot with 00 buck, and 12 ga slugs.

Contrast not long ago, using a '29 model Colt DS and Older Model 36 snub nose revolver, with standard pressure, 158 gr, LRN (yeah those called Widow Makers) one shot and Cow down right there.
Just a lowly 38spl.


Investigate & Verify.
We built replicas of actual home, apt, and business settings, as construction differs from just the materials and how they react to projectiles.

See, we beefed up walls, back stops with furniture, cover, shooting lanes and the like with materials we actually shot.

i.e. 12 or 20 ga slugs for Condo use.
Oh that person had that condo, secure, and the shooting lanes , cover, and backstops , would stop a slug, some would stop a 30-06, because we shot '06 at these.

We used one way mirrors, glass bricks, special bullet resistant glass...
In a serious situation, we HAD to know we could shoot through that mirror, or glass French Door and understand projectile deflection , get shot placement, and know that backstop would indeed stop.

We had cover, so if the criminals shot back, we had materials that would stop up to 30-06 even 12 ga Brenneke type slugs.

Heck some of the business guns were/ are Model 70 in '06, and Lever Action in 30-30.
One setting is using a Bounty Hunter with one barrel 45-70 and the other 12 ga slug.

Not a game, instead a very serious, real deal how it plays out in the Real World for some folks and situations.


One popular reduced recoil loading I/we dislike, it has a "rubber ball" and that ball will bounce back and hurt, not to mention distract, someone shooting that load.

It might surprise some, how other loadings richochet, and can cause injury , and distraction to a shooter defending in a serious situation.

Hence the reason we use cover, not only for those defending, also employees, or other family members.

A showcase, with storage underneath, has bullet resistant materials, tested, at point blank range, with '06 and 12 ga Brenneke.
You shoot a BG in the process of armed robbery and his/ her finger trips trigger on a firearm as they go down and that bullet goes down into a showcase where a employee dove down for concealment, or cover, and they still get hurt or dead.

Same deal in a residence.
Practiced plans with family, with the smallest and youngest kept in mind.
It might be a codeword yelled out, as the adults cannot get to a kid, and that kid gets down and behind a "toy box" that is not a toy box in his/her room, instead has media to stop bullets and pellets.

Book shelves, lamp tables with covered doors for storage underneath, Headboards of a bed with media b/t headboard and wall, dresser drawer, with medial behind it...

Here is a real set, for an apartment, a lady uses.

Her apartment has one of the firewalls on one side, she chose that apartment because of location, and that firewall played a part in our decision.

Open door, and one steps into living room.
Straight ahead is the one bedroom.
To the right, just before one enters bedroom, is a kitchen bar, then continue into kitchen.

Standing in the doorway immediate to left, is a Entertainment center with the doors that cover TV, and below the doors cover Stereo, DVD, and everything else.
The back of that Entertainment center, has had added two, 1/4 Steel plates, that are concealed with matching wood, stained to match center.
These are removable, for ease in moving.

Wall opposite, that behind is bedroom, still in LR has a small sofa.
Behind it are glass bricks about a foot think, and these come up and make a behind the sofa "knick-knack" shelf.

Enter Bedroom and the nice long dresser, has the steel plates like the entertainment center.

Back at the front door, and at the small bar, are again glass bricks about 6" thick, these are on both sides, where one sits at that bar , both LR and Kitchen side.

Between front door and that bar, is the "guest closet" and there is a pc of drywall covering a sandwich of 1/8", plexiglas, and 1/4" steel.
Jackets and whatever cover this, and the idea is, if someone is at front door,or shoots into LR window at that angle into Kitchen those items, plus HVAC unit which is in Kitchen will offer cover.

Just part of what we did, not all, still she knows those steps will stop various projectiles, as we actually shot the darn things before these were implemented.

Her CCW, her bedroom gun, and other defense guns, will not penetrate these things.

She advertises nothing.
One will never know she knows anything about guns, or has even shot one.
She does not use a Residential Security Container (AKA Gun Safe), what she does have, is a Real Safe, that is TR/TL rated and small and one might say "custom" as it was bought used , and it was originally made and used by a Gold Dealer.
It does not look like a "normal safe" and it is truly concealed and secured professionally in that apt.

The rest of her valuables are in a Tann Safe, rated TR/TL 60 and it is inside one of 4 Walk in Vaults off site somewhere.
This gal is in her mid 20's, and has been shooting since she was age 4.
She shot her first 100 straight in skeet at age 14, she run the 50 yard police quals at age 15, with a ,357 revolver.
She has never been to a "known" gun school.
What she does have, one cannot get off Internet.

This is real deal stuff, and folks were doing before I was born in the mid 50's, and still do.

Investigate & Verify.
 
Forget birdshot, I wouldn't trust anything smaller than #1 buckshot for personal defence. I've found that up to several pellets out of a full power #4 *buckshot* load will often fail to make it through an empty plastic water jug at only 15 yards, wrap a jug in clothing type material and/or use a lower velocity load and things look even worse.
 
Many PD depts use #4 or #1 Buck to prevent over-pentration issues when executing raids. If its good enough for them............
 
Usen birdshot best bet is aim for the head. If it doesn't take out his eyes the blood flowing into them will blind him. A chest shot with birdshot isn't something I'd bet my life on. Over penetration is an issue not just with my neighbors but my own family. Outside my door is my kids room. IMHO (and we know what thats worth) Birdshot into a bg face outside my door will either make him think perhaps he picked the wrong house or, give me an edge during a struggle.

In the end all shootings are something of a gamble and bird shot is playing with worse odds of taken the bg out. But gives me the edge in maken sure I don't become the worst thing to happen to my kids. You have to decide for yourself what way you want to stack the deck.
 
I would think that #1 or #4 buck would retain adequate penetration to stop a threat, but would significantly lessen the risk of wall penetration compared to 00 buck.

#4 buck into gelatin (from www.tacticalshotgun.ca):
buck_4_b.jpg


See more here: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
 
Worked in a Trauma center the last 10 years. One of the Docs and I had the same question.

We got a couple of old jackets and cut them into 12x12 squares. Then taped them to watermelons front and back. Placed them on sawhorses in front of a piece of sheetrock at 7yrds. Then tried various shells for effect. Obviously the 000 literally exploded the melon and had full penetration through the sheetrock. Best result without tearing the sheetrock to pieces was birdshot. Fully penetrated the jacket and melon but didn't destroy the sheetrock.

We both now load the first 2 shells with birdshot, if that doesn't do the job, the rest are 000. No point in not being prepared if bg has on several layers of clothes.
 
Make sure you can put your shots on target, and don't worry so much... at least in my opinion.

This is completely unscientific, and based soley on my experiences "playing" around with shotguns for years recreationally, and what I've seen in shootings professionally:

00buck is a good choice, and is not very likely to through-and-through on your attacker, plus a minimum of two layers or more of drywall (before reaching your neighbor).

Could it happen? Sure, I imagine it could... But you are looking for a balance of protection here (I wouldn't recommend a .50BMG, but I don't see an issue with 00 Buck being unreasonable)

Do you know the basic layout of your neighbors apartment? Another consideration when shooting should always be your "backstop". This is something we have to think about in LE every time we draw our guns... By way of example, in my opinion it wouldn't matter if you were using birdshot or buckshot (or a pistol, etc) if you fired a shot that missed an attacker standing in front of a picture window, and some innocent party was on the other side of that window! But, on the other hand, if you put rounds into your neighbors closet, you may have thereby minimized your risk of hitting someone. These statements are all largely theoretical in nature, because your odds of considering these factors when confronted by an intruder at 3am are probably slim. Just throwing it out there as some food-for-thought.
 
buy HD loads maybe? They supposably 'have less recoil and offer more control and accuracy'. The 'less recoil, more control' part would seemingly mean less power and penetration compared to your usual 12ga shell while still permanently reomving the threat. Buy a pack of those and see how they work.
 
Birdshot is for birds. Giving a nasty flesh wound to a perp who may be high on meth, may not be feeling any pain, and who may be armed and intent on killing you probably isn't going to do you much good. Trust me, the perp isn't worried about overpenetration.

Use 00 buck or pass on the shotgun and use a handgun/rifle for HD. There's no such thing as too much gun when you're seconds away from death.
-
 
Is there a middle ground between where I am and 00 buck?

YES.

Use #1 buck, #2 buck, #3 buck, or #4 buck. BIG difference between these and #4 birdshot that you tried. I'd go with #3 or #4 buck for your situation, or for a little more penetration, the #1 buck. They're all pretty close.
 
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Use 00 buck and move to a brick house.
If you're gonna use a shotgun, use 00 buck (#4 for the lighter fellows, 0000 for the heavier ones).
If you don't want to use that, get a rifle.
 
You are on a ranch! Try it from different ranges.
Everyone recomends buckshot for defense and for good reason, it is designed for man size animals within the ranges of shot.

However I think you will find that the damage done by a birdshot load from about 1-8 feet is much more significant.
Very close range birdshot can be quite lethal when it is all practicly one solid mass.

There is many documented instances of lethal use of birdshot in defense and in criminal cases for offensive purposes.


If you stand a few feet from the target I think you will find the board has a big hole smashed through it. Breeching rounds are powdered metal and they take out locks, hinges, doors and other hard objects. Birdshot does the same thing from such ranges, and stays a solid mass a couple feet further.
I wouldn't use it, but there is a very short range that it is effective.
 
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