Ruger LCP And General Pocket Gun Hatred

[Mr. Mosin]

I have noticed a general consensus among the gun community of emotions ranging from annoyance to downright hatred of the Ruger LCP, and equivalent pocket .380 Automatics; and I can not grasp this. They are *not* range guns, *not* guns particularly enduring of a high round count, but for their intended purpose, they are *excellent*.

For a *very* long time, almost a decade infact; Academy regularly had them for $199 +tax if memory serves, with them occasionally dropping to $150 +tax. Where else are you gonna get an American made firearm that is genuinely concealable, chambered in a decent cartridge, and has the backing of one of America's largest firearm manufacturers behind it regarding QA/QC, and reparations if issues are to be had for still less than $300 ?

The quick answer is... you're not. How many low income people trying to make ends meet did Ruger provide comfort and protection to with something that is seemingly hated by a large portion of the firearms community ? How many people, when restrained by a non-permissive work environment, given the choice between a certain diminutive .22 revolver or an LCP actually had a viable method of defense when carrying an LCP compared to a NAA .22 revolver ?


Just something to think about next time you see a thread or comment bashing the LCP and pocket .380's in general.

 

[trackskippy]

Ive always saw those types of guns as second and third line backups, meant for last ditch type use. Not a primary gun.

Ive worked and carried in NPE's my whole life, and normally carried full-size, and sometimes compact handguns, and sometimes both together, and never had a problem doing so. Those are the guns I shoot the best with too, which is what should be your reason for choosing the gun in the first place, not what is the easiest and more convenient for you to carry. Just having "a gun" on you doesn't necessarily mean you are "armed".

If you choose and LCP, or Seecamp, ect as a primary, then that should be the gun you run in your regular and realistic practice, and from how you carry it. If youre going to limit yourself to just that, youre going to have to work a lot harder too.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Ive always saw those types of guns as second and third line backups, meant for last ditch type use. Not a primary gun.

Ive worked and carried in NPE's my whole life, and normally carried full-size, and sometimes compact handguns, and sometimes both together, and never had a problem doing so. Those are the guns I shoot the best with too, which is what should be your reason for choosing the gun in the first place, not what is the easiest and more convenient for you to carry. Just having "a gun" on you doesn't necessarily mean you are "armed".

If you choose and LCP, or Seecamp, ect as a primary, then that should be the gun you run in your regular and realistic practice, and from how you carry it. If youre going to limit yourself to just that, youre going to have to work a lot harder too.

And.... here we go again.

 

[trackskippy]

LOL. You asked. And they are far from "excellent".

There are more realistic guns available at reasonable prices, you dont have to spend a lot of money to get a decent gun. But there is a difference between a decent gun, and something like an LCP for a primary carry gun.

Personally, I wouldn't scrimp on something like this and would do my best to get the best I possibly could and the gear and ammo to make it work and be proficient with it. As I said, just having a gun doesn't mean you're prepared, and in thinking that way, you only deceive yourself.

Let me ask this, why do you carry a gun, and will what you carry, and your sills with it, give you the best chance of getting out of whatever it is you might get?

Or will any old thing that fits in a pocket will do?

 

[unclenunzie]

If we get to the root of it - inexpensive guns serve people who don't have a lot of money. They can be small or large (see recent prices on the generally admired Taurus pistols of late). As far as pocket 380's go, I don't see a lot of hate, just preferences for larger, easier to shoot and cheaper to feed (9mm) pistols. I mean you're gonna get people who hate one thing or another, not limited to guns.

Oh, I should mention that my Gen1 post recall LCP was my first handgun purchase and at the time, where legal it was not only my primary carry it was my only carry. I do not know how I survived

 

[jar]

My experience seems to show that many many people who buy guns do not practice, period. They don't practice awareness, planning or other forms of potential self defense.

And I have a few guns that when I acquired them appeared to have spent the last quarter to half century or so stored away.

The LCP though is small enough and light enough and reliable enough and chambered in a round that just might be far far more effective than whatever the finest handgun stored away in some dark closet chambers. It's affordable and until recently ammo was reasonable and available so it definitely has a place when considering a self defense handgun.

I have similar sized pistols chambered in the .380 but they all were considerably more expensive than the LCP.

Are they more reliable than the LCP? Nope.

Are they easier to shoot than the LCP? Slightly.

Are they more accurate than the LCP? Not really.

Would they provide greater protection at potential close range for the person who doesn't plan, who doesn't train, who doesn't practice regularly?

I don't believe so.

 

[starling]

Not a fan of the LCP at all but I do like Pocket guns. When I hear Ruger my mind goes to Ruger P series durability level. Unfortunately Ruger does not have that mentality anymore. Ruger American is pretty strong and well built but I dont own that model yet. Might get the competition version eventually though.

If that LCP max had a steel subframe I probably would have jumped on it. They were lazy though. If they offered it as a true DAO and steel subframe I would have multiples and likely carry one.

From everything I have seen in more recent years Ruger QC has also slipped a lot. Ruger use to be really good about that. I still like Rugers but just buy the older stuff.

Next "new" pocket gun I get will most likely be a Diamondback DB9 Gen 4. Used... been keeping an eye out for the RM380 or Beretta Pico. Dont have the Sccy CPX 380acp yet either so there is that as well.

 

[tactikel]

I carry an LCP in my warm weather rotation. I love it. I got it used at a gun show for $125. It is an adequate, affordable EDC. I’ve put 500+ rounds with zero FTF.
I know many minority coworkers who must carry because of the skyrocketing urban crime rates. Guns bought legally must be affordable, many have hand me downs “ my Uncle passed, this is gun”, then street guns “ $ 250 gets you a “9”.
A LCP, P3AT, Diamondback, in the pocket of a RN getting off at 23:30 and waiting at a bus stop for 15 minutes to get home, can be the difference.

 

[Charlie98]

If the LCP is all you can afford, it is likely the only pistol you have… therefor you have nothing to gauge it against. It’s a pocket pistol that works well enough. The problem you might find is the people who don’t care for them compare them against other pistols… that is to say, they are shooters, not just people who buy a gun and carry it.

 

[Ethan Verity]

I had some bad quality experiences with my recent LCP Max purchase, however my LCP1 from 2016 has been excellent! It's still the gun I carry most often... just so convenient, while still packing a decent punch. Personally, I don't have any problems at all shooting it, and will put 100 rounds through it in a single range trip... I do not understand the comments I often see describing the LCP as though it recoils like a scandium frame 357 Mag.

 

[.38 Special]

"Pocket" guns in general are difficult to shoot, mostly chambered for marginal cartridges, and usually made to a price point. None of that endears them to "gun people". They're really not my first choice for much of anything, and even in downtown Los Angeles I have no difficulty concealing a K frame in .357 or a subcompact Glock in 10mm, so I don't quite get the "non-permissive environment" business. Frankly, I think such guns are really more about convenience than anything, in that they can be slipped into a pocket with no real effort and the gentleman can then consider himself more-or-less armed.

 

[Riomouse911]

I bought the LCP when it first came out and carried it for quite a while. It worked very well for my needs. But, the trigger was not my favorite, and the sights were useless beyond a few yards.

I went to the LCP II about two years after those were introduced. The gun has a much better trigger and sights, plus a last round hold open feature the original didn’t have. Its still nowhere near a target gun, but if it calls for a bit more precise shot this gun is better in my hands than the LCP.

Stay safe.

 

[starling]

"Pocket" guns in general are difficult to shoot, mostly chambered for marginal cartridges, and usually made to a price point. None of that endears them to "gun people". They're really not my first choice for much of anything, and even in downtown Los Angeles I have no difficulty concealing a K frame in .357 or a subcompact Glock in 10mm, so I don't quite get the "non-permissive environment" business. Frankly, I think such guns are really more about convenience than anything, in that they can be slipped into a pocket with no real effort and the gentleman can then consider himself more-or-less armed.

right. The modern derringer or vest pocket auto. Pairs up nicely with a pen knife.

IMO they fill a nice place. Ankle carry... great. Secondary pistol... fantastic. Deep concealment or pocket... wonderful.

From a shooting/range perspective they can be fun and challenging. Be nice if there were more with nicer sights and better triggers. Be even better if all the 380 versions had offerings in 32acp. Then those tiny grips would be a lot more forgiving.

seems like the micro 380 fad is passing. In the last year or so the Beretta pico, KT p3at, and Rm380 have all been axed with no follow up products. Everybody going for micro 9mms or mid size pistols with Red dot wizardry. Personally I hope the market doesnt completly abandon the pocket pistol arena but there seems to be a pattern as of late. 25 and 32 pocket pistols have been slim pickens for quite a while now. LCP max has not brought about the double stack pocket revolution like many thought either.

 

[Tallball]

I carry mine basically when it's the easiest thing to reach and draw. In cool weather it's in the breast pocket of a heavy shirt or light jacket. I especially like that it's quickly available standing or sitting.

It's much faster and easier to reach for me than a larger handgun at belt level covered with a coat. Some people have trained for years to quickly draw from under a coat. I have not.

I can draw it quickly and empty it quickly onto a small paper plate 20 feet away, To me, that's acceptable for SD.

My best-shooting carry pieces are larger belt revolvers, but in some clothing/weather/activity situations, accessibility is more important that how pleasant the gun is to shoot.

I've had a P3AT, original LCP, Pico, and LCPII. I prefer the LCPII by a large margin. The trigger and sights are significantly better than the original, for me, anyway.

I got this one used for not much a few years ago and have had zero problems with it.

My small 9mm pistols languish in my safe. I actually carry either a snub revolver or the LCPII.

Ruger LCPII 380acp

• Tallball
• Aug 3, 2018

 

[Wildbillz]

I carried a LCP all most every day till I up graded to the LCP Max. I never had an issue with it.

WB

 

[Charlie98]

seems like the micro 380 fad is passing.

I wonder that, too, and for a number of reasons.

1) 9mm's keep getting smaller. I used to carry a .380; I traded that in for a Kahr 9mm. Same size package, same round count, less weight (not really fair... it was a steel-framed .380...) and more power.
2) No fun. People buy them and, after shooting them, realize they really aren't any fun to shoot. A challenge? Yes. Fun? Not so much. I used to carry an AMT DAO .380... I speak from experience.
3) Impracticality... other than being a very compact pocket pistol, they aren't much else, in much the same way, for example, a BFR is impractical other than it's role as a hunting pistol, or range toy.
4) Current laws. As more and more states open up to licensed carry, or constitutional carry, the need for a deep concealment pistol is waning.

For what it's worth, my current carry fleet is either a Kahr CW9, or the smaller Kahr CM9... one round difference, and about 1/2" at the length and height. Even carried in a good holster, I struggle to draw and present it in drills, but the slightly larger CW9 is a natural. Go figure. I've even carried the CM9 as a pocket pistol... and that was a total disaster. When Kahr came out with their .380 (CT380) I debated getting one. I even was holding one in my hand at the Fort Worth gun show a year or so ago... ready to pull my wallet out. I decided the entire reason I was carrying a pistol was to defend myself in the face of an adversary... digging around in my pocket for a pistol, or even fumbling to draw a small pistol from a holster seemed contrary to the idea of carrying altogether. Since then, my CM's have been relegated to backup or BOB duty, and I carry a pistol that is easier to master, and, more importantly, I have the greatest chance of success with at the Moment of Truth. I do understand, however, those of you who are limited for whatever reason to a pocket or subcompact pistol... you have to do what you have to do.

 

[chicharrones]

1) 9mm's keep getting smaller. I used to carry a .380; I traded that in for a Kahr 9mm. Same size package, same round count, less weight (not really fair... it was a steel-framed .380...) and more power.
2) No fun. People buy them and, after shooting them, realize they really aren't any fun to shoot. A challenge? Yes. Fun? Not so much. I used to carry an AMT DAO .380... I speak from experience.

AMT DAO .380 . . . a non-tilt barrel blowback gun. It hits the hand harder than an equal size and weight tilting barrel locked breech gun. Going from my experience with pocket sized and compact guns, that AMT blowback gun is going to hit the hand like a same size 9mm with locked breech action. Which makes choosing a pocket 9 a no brainer.

If no other guns have been tried in the interim, between owning that old classic AMT and the 21st century manufactured pocket guns.

Ruger LCPs and all the pocket brethren based off the KelTec designs went to locked breech long ago. Even with the polymer frames which decrease weight, these guns have tilt barrel locked breech actions which soften the felt recoil. That's why my old NAA Guardian .32 ACP blowback pistol hits my hand as hard as lighter Ruger LCP in .380. Then there is my RM380 DAO locked breech pocket gun which feels even softer to shoot than the LCP, thanks to being a bit wider and spreading the recoil forces in the hand. Not to mention the larger slide of the RM380 which allows for a slightly lighter recoil spring, again softening the blow to the hand when firing.

 

[chicharrones]

right. The modern derringer or vest pocket auto. Pairs up nicely with a pen knife.

IMO they fill a nice place. Ankle carry... great. Secondary pistol... fantastic. Deep concealment or pocket... wonderful.

From a shooting/range perspective they can be fun and challenging. Be nice if there were more with nicer sights and better triggers. Be even better if all the 380 versions had offerings in 32acp. Then those tiny grips would be a lot more forgiving.

seems like the micro 380 fad is passing. In the last year or so the Beretta pico, KT p3at, and Rm380 have all been axed with no follow up products. Everybody going for micro 9mms or mid size pistols with Red dot wizardry. Personally I hope the market doesnt completly abandon the pocket pistol arena but there seems to be a pattern as of late. 25 and 32 pocket pistols have been slim pickens for quite a while now. LCP max has not brought about the double stack pocket revolution like many thought either.

Beretta Pico, I can only guess that Beretta sucked at getting them on the market correctly or people realized the grip is too small given the size of the gun. The fact Beretta has been making a bunch of Tomcats again tells me they know of the pocket gun need, but apparently aren't willing to spend time designing a decent one.

KelTec P3AT. Simply lost market share and sales to the volume behemoth Ruger and the LCP series.

Remington RM380. Simply went down with the Remington ship. Still a great design. Hopefully someone will resurrect that design created by Rorhbaugh.

 

[starling]

I wonder that, too, and for a number of reasons.

1) 9mm's keep getting smaller. I used to carry a .380; I traded that in for a Kahr 9mm. Same size package, same round count, less weight (not really fair... it was a steel-framed .380...) and more power.
2) No fun. People buy them and, after shooting them, realize they really aren't any fun to shoot. A challenge? Yes. Fun? Not so much. I used to carry an AMT DAO .380... I speak from experience.
3) Impracticality... other than being a very compact pocket pistol, they aren't much else, in much the same way, for example, a BFR is impractical other than it's role as a hunting pistol, or range toy.
4) Current laws. As more and more states open up to licensed carry, or constitutional carry, the need for a deep concealment pistol is waning.

For what it's worth, my current carry fleet is either a Kahr CW9, or the smaller Kahr CM9... one round difference, and about 1/2" at the length and height. Even carried in a good holster, I struggle to draw and present it in drills, but the slightly larger CW9 is a natural. Go figure. I've even carried the CM9 as a pocket pistol... and that was a total disaster. When Kahr came out with their .380 (CT380) I debated getting one. I even was holding one in my hand at the Fort Worth gun show a year or so ago... ready to pull my wallet out. I decided the entire reason I was carrying a pistol was to defend myself in the face of an adversary... digging around in my pocket for a pistol, or even fumbling to draw a small pistol from a holster seemed contrary to the idea of carrying altogether. Since then, my CM's have been relegated to backup or BOB duty, and I carry a pistol that is easier to master, and, more importantly, I have the greatest chance of success with at the Moment of Truth. I do understand, however, those of you who are limited for whatever reason to a pocket or subcompact pistol... you have to do what you have to do.

Also have to factor in the notion that people think they need to have the ability to make 40 yards hit now to defend themselve. Thats not really going to work out well with a vest pocket type pistol. Smallest pistol I would consider that for would be a PPK for accuracy ability alone.

Now for a normal CCW without the need for deep concealment... I want something that fits my hand well and easier to manipulate. Thats more of a feel thing. Firearm control = Bullet control for me. Smallest I like to go for a primary is a Makarov. For deeper concealment I prefer 25 or 32 because its a whole lot easier to control small pistols when they shoot small bullets. Range shooting is one thing but CCW is another. I am not recoil sensitive normaly. I dont have a problem shooting 380acp vest pistols at the range. In an actual event of an armed confrontation I prefer a little more leeway. Some pistols are better than others and I have my preferences. On a vest pistol I sure dont want a push button magazine release (prefer the heal release) and if I cant comfortably shoot it one handed.... forget it. Has to be DAO with restrike ability as well. In the end there are not a whole lot of pistols that check all those boxes. I also prefer straight blowback as apposed to the complications of trying to squeeze a delayed system in a tiny pistol. Even less pistols to choose from in that area.

 

[chicharrones]

Just something to think about next time you see a thread or comment bashing the LCP and pocket .380's in general.

There's still a need for pocket pistols and revolvers. For those that need them, practice with them at the range (and dry fire for drawing practice at home). No need to worry about what others think.

I'm one of those folks that could carry a larger IWB gun into most of my customer's buildings. However, due to my body positions working on customer's machinery, I'd have to unholster the thing in many situations because the gun would be stabbing me in my side. Kind of like laying a 5" x 7" rectangular piece of 1" thick steel while trying to diagnose a critical problem.

A pocket gun gets the gun off my waist and down on my thigh. Which is much easier for my particular working environments.

 

[Charlie98]

AMT DAO .380 . . . a non-tilt barrel blowback gun. It hits the hand harder than an equal size and weight tilting barrel locked breech gun. Going from my experience with pocket sized and compact guns, that AMT blowback gun is going to hit the hand like a same size 9mm with locked breech action. Which makes choosing a pocket 9 a no brainer.

If no other guns have been tried in the interim, between owning that old classic AMT and the 21st century manufactured pocket guns.

I actually have carried 3 different .380's... the AMT DAO, which I'm obviously aware is a straight blowback, the PPK/s (same-same,) and a Colt Government .380, which is locked breech. Comparing apples to apples, the AMT was a handful compared to the PPK/s as far as trying to shoot it well, but they both popped your hand pretty well. Now, comparing oranges to oranges... the PPK/s, while saucy and debonair, can't hold a candle to the Colt. The Colt is actually a fun pistol to shoot... but, as I mentioned, it's also big, and not fairly categorized as a pocket pistol, just like the PPK/s. Hence, the easy switch to a poly 9, like the Kahr CW9.

I'm not really knocking the LCP, specifically, or even .380's generally... I would happily carry a .380 again if that's all I had, my biggest argument against pocket pistols is what makes them a pocket pistol in the first place: Size, and some of the characteristics you get with a low-budget pistol. No, the LCP isn't an RG, but some of the feature sets (grip, trigger, safety) on the subcompacts take away from the overall shootability. Nothing is free.

 

[chicharrones]

Also have to factor in the notion that people think they need to have the ability to make 40 yards hit now to defend themselves.

Yep. I've never seen that brought up for civilian concealed carry until that mall situation this year. Seems like a lot of folks now see that as something they will have to deal with when they hardly considered it before.

That scenario isn't what I'd consider suited for pocket guns.

 

[CDW4ME]

Ive always saw those types of guns as second and third line backups, meant for last ditch type use. Not a primary gun.

Ive worked and carried in NPE's my whole life

This.

I had a LCP 380 for when I literally could not carry something better; I was limited to pocket carry because of work attire.
I'm no longer limited by work attire; I am willing and able to dress for concealment and willing & able to carry a holstered gun on belt.
Is there anywhere I rather defend myself with a LCP 380 than a Glock 22? No, Nowhere.
Would a LCP 380 be an acceptable 2nd option (AKA "back-up") to the Glock on belt? Sure.

When one is not limited by work clothes, there are (I've noticed) different outlooks on selecting a carry handgun.
"Best I can do" - Handgun is chosen because it is perceived advantageous, they shoot it well - location / anticipated threat are not used to rationalize less.
"Best I'm willing to do" - "better than nothing" - unrequired shirt tucking likely a factor, unwilling to carry gun on belt, lack of anticipated threat used to justify carrying minimal.
That is IMO the #1 reason some limit themself to pocket carry and it is often not said, or posted (elephant in room). What get posted is statistics, "I feel", "Meets my needs".

 

[starling]

AMT DAO .380 . . . a non-tilt barrel blowback gun. It hits the hand harder than an equal size and weight tilting barrel locked breech gun. Going from my experience with pocket sized and compact guns, that AMT blowback gun is going to hit the hand like a same size 9mm with locked breech action. Which makes choosing a pocket 9 a no brainer.

If no other guns have been tried in the interim, between owning that old classic AMT and the 21st century manufactured pocket guns.

Ruger LCPs and all the pocket brethren based off the KelTec designs went to locked breech long ago. Even with the polymer frames which decrease weight, these guns have tilt barrel locked breech actions which soften the felt recoil. That's why my old NAA Guardian .32 ACP blowback pistol hits my hand as hard as lighter Ruger LCP in .380. Then there is my RM380 DAO locked breech pocket gun which feels even softer to shoot than the LCP, thanks to being a bit wider and spreading the recoil forces in the hand. Not to mention the larger slide of the RM380 which allows for a slightly lighter recoil spring, again softening the blow to the hand when firing.

Straight blowback gets a bad wrap these days. However... once you dial the pistols in they are far more reliable. Recoil is harsh yes but in an actual encounter I will choose it over the locked breach pistols. Feeding and extraction are far more trouble free in straight blowback. Most dont even need an extractor. Feeding wise the locked breach guns have to cram a lot more into a small space and that often ends up being steeper angles on the feedramps that can create all sorts of problems. Also less parts having to work properly in terms of timing. Also better accuracy typically because of the fixed barrel. So before people completly just ditch the long vetted simple blowback system on pocket pistols its best to consider the benefits of the design.

Those AMTs were not too bad once they were tuned. Have to use the proper lube (stainless on stainless = Rig+p grease) and make sure the magazine was reliable. There are some bad mags out there floating around for AMTs. They are hard kickers yes. Not the worst but not deffinitly not range pistols if you are recoil sensitive or have wrist problems. That was never the intent of the pistol though.

RM380 is a nice pistol IMO. Its a shame remington went down and the design has been squashed. Based of the 9mm roughbough and chambered in 380 the pistols are pretty stout and easy to shoot well in 380. DAO system is perfect for that style of pistol. Its one of the few that check all the boxes for me I just dont have one yet. Same for the Pico. I was kind of waiting for a stainless RM380 and a 32acp Pico and then the guns went poof. Hopefully Beretta has a Pico 2.0 in the works.

NAA gaurdians and Seecamps are nasty little buggers to shoot. They need a heavier slide but the appeal of those pistols is the size so doing so would defeat the whole purpose. People just have to accept them the way they are or move on. I like them personally but they are deffinitly not for everyone. Quality is there and they are well designed though.....Just have to accept that they are harsh to shoot. Derringers are not a whole lot of fun either BTW (not a huge fan of those).

 

[starling]

Yep. I've never seen that brought up for civilian concealed carry until that mall situation this year. Seems like a lot of folks now see that as something they will have to deal with when they hardly considered it before.

That scenario isn't what I'd consider suited for pocket guns.

Note-Not a dig on you chicharrones I am just speaking in a general sense.....

Considerations are endless. What about dealing with an armed shooter wearing body armor? What if they have night vision and you dont? What if they are useing non leathal weapons and all you have is a leathal weapon?

At what point do you need to pull a wagon with you everywhere you go in case of every possible scenario. Where does it end? People get kinda nutty IMO. CCW carrying with competion based pistols...hair triggers and all is a little out there to me. Also is the notion of manual safeties are an absolute NoNo on a carry pistol. Also the notion that people are going to spend every waking hour training or running scenarios through there heads.

Ive said it before here... Robin Williams, Walter Mathau.. 1984 Film... "The Survivors". People would do well to revisit that film. There is some good stuff in it on how all this tactical mindset and obsession can mess with your head and pull you out of reality. We do not live in a war zone where there is a threat around every corner regardless of what the news or alternative media portrays. Its extremely important that CCW and RKBA supporters do not blur the lines of Defense and Offense IMO and I am seeing trends to do just that.

Bad things happen sometimes yes but the overwhelming majority of people are just trying to get through their day and be left alone. They have the same problems as everyone else and appreciate a kind gesture like most people. If more people would get off their phones and look around they would see that. All this crazy media is messing with peoples heads IMO.