S&W 41 Bullseye gun too heavy?

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dashootist

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Hi. I am interested in shooting in Bullseye league. So I went out and bought a used S&W 41 with 5.5" barrel and aimpoint red dot. The pistol functions fantastic, eats all kinds of ammo. But the problem is that the pistol is heavier than a piece of brick. I can't even hold the gun steady with one hand for more than a few seconds. It's an awful mess when I practice Bullseye.

So I weighed the red dot. It, batteries, and the rail weigh over 16 ounces. Wikipedia says the 41 weighs 41 ounces (what a coincident!). Add 16 ounces to the pistol, and the total weight is over 57 ounces. Wow! I'm suppose to shoot this thing one handed? I'm only 5'7", average weight adult, with office worker arm and hand strength.

So what should I do?
(1) go to the gym more
(2) sell it and buy something lighter (like what?)
(3) find a "field barrel" (but how much lighter is it?)
(4) find a lighter red dot system (like what?)
 
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If you can focus on the front sight just take off the dot. I took my ultradots off my m41s when I was going for my Distinguished. Still haven't put then back on now three years later.

You don't need to be Ahnold just moderately fit. A three pound dumb bell held out stretched is all you need for weights.

Remember to breathe beforehand! During slow fire you should only have the pistol up for about 5-7 seconds. If the shot has not broken by then you should put it down and start over again.

When I first started I could only get less than half my shots on target during Timed and Rapid. Part was fatigue the rest just learning how to squeeze the trigger right. Eventually your deltoid will get used to it and the wobble gets tighter.
 
build streangth two ways

get 2 hand grips, one for the car and the other for the couch
start off with dominant hand doing 10 squeezes and 5 in the othe hand. increase by 5 when able. do groups of 5 and keep swichinf hands. work up to 50 3 times a day. red lights are helpful places to work with them.
when holding it in your hand keep trigger finger pointed straight and endever to keep it straight...seperate its usage from the griping fingers

two is to with gun hand start with a 12 oz glass coke bottle ( for the shape) and hold it at arms length for 30 seconds or till it starts to shake. work up to a minute. than fill it with water. keep repeating till you can hold 4 pounds for 30 seconds

remember that one can not hold absulatly still so 'draw'a 8 on its side or a smile. this controled movement of the muzzle is necessary and than time the hammer fall for when the front site and the movement align with the target

sorry...no spell check
good luck
 
Maybe on the light side actually. Check out this link...post 6
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=99310

The weights add an additional 16 ozs. And that is on the heavier 7.5" barreled M41

Another Bullseye pistol is the Pardini SP and it, too, weighs the same 41ozs.

I've been looking at a pair of Nygords grips. They too will add weight but they don't serve the same purpose as the barrel weights. They are for grip. The barrel weights are to help control muzzle flip.
 
I have a 41 with a dot, made HM. Arm strength excercises are a must. You're 41 is about right for weight. I have a 5.5 heavy with dot and a 7.5" with compensator with iron.
 
Remember, too, that that weight will help you in sustained fire.
Still in all, that 16oz for a red dot/rings/etc. seems heavy.
While the Ultradot (weight is 4.8oz plus rings) is still the berries for many shooters, many others have switched to the smaller lighter tube sights like the Aimpoint Micro or its less expensive cousin, Bushnell's TRS 25 (weight of either is 3.7oz, integral base) or the even smaller and lighter reflex sights like the Docter, JPoint, Burris Fastfire (weight 1/2oz, integral base.)
While not an option for a Smith 41, mounting a Falcon aluminum match barrel on my old HS Victor and using a reflex sight saved me about a half pound.
Pete
 
Are you saying it's normal for Bullseye gun to weight over 57 ounces?
Well, I just weighed my old Model 41 with 7 1/2" iron-sight barrel and Olympic barrel weight set I shot with 5th. Inf AMU in the late 1960's.

It came in at 56 oz with an empty magazine.
So, it would be 57+ with a loaded magazine

SW411.jpg

More push-ups are in order if you can't hold it up. :D

rc
 
I think most of the classic bullseye guns are too heavy. When I was hot and heavy into bullseye, I borrowed a bbl cut back to 4" and machined away maybe 1/3 of the of the remaining weight, and used the lightest dot I could find.

I found that the frequency of the wobble was quite a bit faster, but about the same size as with the heavier gun, but shooting a 900 was much less fatiguing.
 
My son handled my 5.5" S&W M-41 at home and commented about how heavy it was. Then we went to the range with it. we also took a Trailside and a Buckmark. After shooting all three all he could do was rave about the 41.

I shoot the Steel Challenge here with it. It points better for me than the Buckmark. I do not find the weight to be a problem, but do use both hands.

The small open face red dots are very light.
 
"Grow stronger."

Why make the game harder than it needs to be. Bullseye requires 270 shots to be fired at a rather small X-ring. Why fight muscle fatigue, when you have all the other challenges to deal with too?
 
I have a dicked up shoulder and back and had the same problem as you.
M-41 with five inch barrel. Iron sights are not a option.
I bought a Clark steel challange barrel that has the weaver mounts built in.
The barrel has no sights.
I use a Match dot sight with two Weaver rings holding the front of the scope.
This has been a nice rig for me.
Some people buy a 7 inch barrel and machine weight off. I like the Clark solution.
 
When I first started shooting bullseye, my guns felt too heavy also. You will learn over time that that extra weight = inertia = more steadiness once you have the strength to hold the gun. When I first started, I couldn't get through a whole match without getting the shakes and fatigue bad.

Do this: Get a 5lb dumb bell. Tape a laser pointer to the top of it. Hold it with your bottom three fingers and your trigger finger out straight and extend your arm like you were shooting. Try to keep the laser pointed at the same spot on the wall while you hold the weight. Repeat until fatigue.

Second option: dry fire a lot. You can get dry-wall anchors to use instead of snap caps.

Third option: get an air-pistol like an IZH-46M. They are very nose-heavy and will give your wrist and arm a good work-out while you shoot them. I know some guys even put on a wrist weight while they practice air pistol.

The M41 is not an excessively heavy gun even with a scope. You just need to build up the relevant muscles to help you hold it. It will come with time. I am not a strong guy and work in an office like you. You *can* do it, just keep at it.
 
wouldn't more inertia make the wobble bigger?

I don't think so. If you look at guys who do position rifle shooting, they often get very heavy rifles which they feel are more steady than lighter rifles. Likewise when you look at the ISSF rapid fire guys, they often put barrel weights on the end of the gun to make it more nose-heavy.

If you think about it, when you are trying to aim, you are trying to impart an acceleration into the gun in the direction you need the gun to move, and then impart a deceleration to stop the gun on the target. With a heavier gun, it takes more effort to move the gun, so for the same level of effort, the heavier gun will move a smaller distance. This makes the motion of aiming easier as the gun's inertia will help keep it on target once it gets there. This is all provided that you have the muscles to steady a heavy pistol or rifle. I personally cannot shoot position rifles standing; they are simply too heavy for me to get a good aim.

Another way to think about it is like this: if you took a regular laser pointer and a laser pointer taped to a brick and shined both at the target, the laser with the brick will be in general more steady than the laser pointer by itself.

Last night I was at the range with my wife and she wanted to try shooting bullseye-style. I got her positioned, but by the time she got through one magazine with my Ruger MKIII with ultradot her shoulder was tired and she needed to switch back to two-hands.

Holding a pistol off-hand extended is not really a natural strength of our bodies, its something we need to train to learn how to do. But with practice, it can be done and to an astonishing degree of accuracy, as evidenced by people like Brian Zins.
 
I don't think so. If you look at guys who do position rifle shooting, they often get very heavy rifles which they feel are more steady than lighter rifles. Likewise when you look at the ISSF rapid fire guys, they often put barrel weights on the end of the gun to make it more nose-heavy.

Those rifles are often heavier due to bull barrels. Neither the 3-position or ISSF shooters move their firearms with great acceleration.

If you think about it, when you are trying to aim, you are trying to impart an acceleration into the gun in the direction you need the gun to move, and then impart a deceleration to stop the gun on the target. With a heavier gun, it takes more effort to move the gun, so for the same level of effort, the heavier gun will move a smaller distance. This makes the motion of aiming easier as the gun's inertia will help keep it on target once it gets there. This is all provided that you have the muscles to steady a heavy pistol or rifle. I personally cannot shoot position rifles standing; they are simply too heavy for me to get a good aim.

The effort (force) isn't static though. The shooter compensates for the heavier firearm by imparting more force to acheive the same acceleration. The inertia you speak of is going to increase and require even more effort to decelerate the gun resulting in greater effort to control/aim the gun at both the beginning and the end.

Another way to think about it is like this: if you took a regular laser pointer and a laser pointer taped to a brick and shined both at the target, the laser with the brick will be in general more steady than the laser pointer by itself.

That's not a fair comparison because you're going from a couple of ounces to a few pounds. Yes, if you could build an 8 ounce rifle crafted from unobtanium it would be real difficult to control but we cannot.

Last night I was at the range with my wife and she wanted to try shooting bullseye-style. I got her positioned, but by the time she got through one magazine with my Ruger MKIII with ultradot her shoulder was tired and she needed to switch back to two-hands.

Holding a pistol off-hand extended is not really a natural strength of our bodies, its something we need to train to learn how to do. But with practice, it can be done and to an astonishing degree of accuracy, as evidenced by people like Brian Zins.

It's always interesting to think about these things
 
@kynoch - fair points you make. I will counter that the ISSF guys do use a lot of motion in rapid fire, traversing 5 targets in 4 seconds starting from a low-ready position. They seem to like a lot of weight forward in their guns, and almost all of the top shooters ADD weight to the guns. The Pardini SP weights 1100 grams (38.8 oz) without a scope or added barrel weights. The AW93 is 1135 grams (nearly 41 oz, just like the M41 the OP is shooting) without scope. They could make those guns lighter if they wanted to (and in fact FWB does offer a light version of the AW93 at 1080 grams) but you don't see the top shooters using guns like that. For reference, a 1911 weighs 1105 grams empty.

Physics is a weird thing, and how people shoot is highly personal. All I can say is that more experienced shooters than me gravitate towards heavier guns, be it position shooting or ISSF rapid fire.

For the OP, there are MANY people before you who have traveled the bullseye road. You CAN do it, through practice and time. Keep at it and you will find that in a year, you'll look back and wonder why you had such a hard time holding the gun with one hand. Judy Tant is one of the finest women shooters in bullseye and she's something like 5'1" and slight. Yet she will outshoot most men, even with the 45. It doesn't take a huge frame to do it, just development over time of the right muscle groups through repetition and practice.
 
Anatomical grips that have a palm rest can be very helpful toward supporting the weight of the gun, but the better ones can admittedly be more expensive.
There are lighter dot sights and where the sight is positioned can also make a difference in the balance of the gun.
I'm probably not any larger or stronger than the OP, yet I've been competing in NRA Bullseye with heavier .22 target pistols for a number of years.
Yes, it can be a real struggle to hold the pistol on target at times while at other times it seems to be a whole lot easier.
There are some tricks to learn about doing it, some of which work for some folks more than others.
There's so many different muscle groups involved in holding a pistol one handed to experiment with, around all of the shoulder, the different muscles throughout the arm, how rigidly one locks their forearm, their stance and the distance that their feet remain apart, the multitude of hand and finger muscles and discovering where to place your fingers on the grip and how much pressure should be exerted by each finger and part of the hand. There's standing tall and arching the back, and leaning further back to the extent necessary verses leaning forward too much which makes the gun feel heavier and which can cause the muzzle to drop.
The Model 41 grip has a relatively upright angle which requires the wrist to be pretty much locked in place to not drop shots. Some of the better anatomical grips do modify the grip angle somewhat which can be more comfortable.
It's not only the weight of the gun that's causing the heaviness, but a whole host of factors that contributes to better and more accurate shooting.
That's part of what makes Bullseye shooting so challenging is that there's a learning curve which for some of us takes years of trial and error. For others with more strength or coordination, they may be able to shoot better much more quickly especially if their pistol rig fits them better or has better ergonomics. Whatever the reasons are, it's important to not give up too easily. It takes a lot of determination and perseverance for a person of average strength and ability to learn how to shoot a pistol one handed, even if the gun were more light weight. An extra ounce of weight distribution or moving the scope an inch or two fore or aft can make a difference just like learning to lean back more, and using your rear foot placement like a rudder to obtain a more natural point of aim which in turn helps to not fight against your own stance.
Where there's a will there's a way to learn, but it does require a certain amount of will to not give up trying. It's truly a lifetime learning endeavor and everyone is on their own learning curve.
Unlock the hidden secrets about holding your individual pistol and what you need to do to be able to fire it accurately one handed. Something may only work for you and no one else. Someone may even tell you that a particular method won't work, and it may only work once but not twice.
But even if it does only work once and you can't repeat the results, at least you recorded one good satisfying score.
The gains can be small until you fire enough matches to where the struggle to fire one handed becomes second nature.
There are no guarantees except that you need to chose to not give up or fail to keep trying. Some folks can get bored with .22 Bullseye if they take their high scores for granted. But for those of us who struggle, recording a good score once in a while is a major accomplishment.
There's always the limitations of a person's equipment to overcome, and there's always other models that you may like and could shoot better scores with.
But everyone still needs to start with some particular model.
Get used to it for as long as possible and when you feel that you can't progress further than trade it in or sell off the accessories and try a different model or some new equipment.
And keep looking for tips from other shooters, and asking others to see what they use for equipment.
I think that the motto for those of us who struggle to shoot .22's one handed should be: "If it were easy then it wouldn't be fun". :)
 
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Palm shelves are a mixed blessing. When I started, I found the shelf to be VERY useful with the 22 in managing the weight and getting my wrist locked. But when I moved on to the 45, I put Herrett National grips on it, and I really struggled until I took them off and went towards more of a 'Zins' grip. Now I am getting better scores, still not as good as the 22. I use anatomical grips on the 22 but not the 45, same as Zins.

Point being, your grip is super critical in bullseye and you need to find a way to build it consistently.
 
..On the Other Hand..

Hi Dashootist, since you are just starting out, I strongly suggest that you

yank the red dot and rail off your Mod 41 and learn the basics with the supplied

open sights. After a few months of training; you will soon develop the required body strength to hold the pistol

without shaking, . You will need to do a holding

exercise and dry fire. Dry fire training should be a 100 : 1 ratio of dry to live fire.

Please watch this video with holding and dry fire instructions from Kieth Sanderson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

Months later, after much bullseye training, you can decide if or when to use

the red dot or other optics. I feel all begining bullseye shooters should start

the training using open sights at first. when dry or live firing, please remember

to focus on your front sight only; DO NOT LOOK AT THE BULL! Good luck; :)


Tony
 
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