S&W M1917 Fitz special

[wnycollector]

For those of you who love interesting old revolvers, I just ran across a very interesting "Fitz special" based upon a S&W M1917 .45acp over on GB. Here is the link http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=154706768

When it comes to older S&W revolvers I tend to be a purist and shun modifications/customizations...BUT if I had the free $$$ I would LOVE to add this revolver to my collection. All you need is that Fitz and old Stevens 520 riot gun and a crushed fedora and you could live out your dreams of being Mike Hammer

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I think this one might be a beaut. It looks well cared for, and the alterations are cleanly done...not a chop job. I'll bet it got carried by the guy that had it done.

 

[Zundfolge]

That's all kinds of awesome.

JH Fitzgerald was kinda foolish for doing that to the trigger guard ... that and most Fitz Specials were Colts, but that would be a cool gun for the collection.

 

[kanook]

So do I bid on that or get the insurance on the Jeep

 

[wnycollector]

So do I bid on that or get the insurance on the Jeep

LOL that's like asking at the bar if you should go to an AA meeting or have another drink!

I think this one might be a beaut. It looks well cared for, and the alterations are cleanly done...not a chop job. I'll bet it got carried by the guy that had it done.

I agree, the mods are of very high quality.

 

[Phydeaux642]

JH Fitzgerald was kinda foolish for doing that to the trigger guard

Why? It seems, from the things that I have read, that it was a useful mod and not near as dangerous as some people think.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. Gawd, that's ugly, with a capital UGH.

2. Mr Fitzgerald worked for Colt, so chopping up a Smith like that is just strange, as well as a waste of a good old gun.

 

[earlthegoat2]

It seems, from the things that I have read, that it was a useful mod and not near as dangerous as some people think

I agree.

Though, I would not carry a gun in that configuration. With gloves, the half trigger guard was a godsend. Enlarging the guard was not an option so off the front came. I remember reading something from a while back about bikers in gangs who favored the 1/2 trigger guard with their leather gloved hands. I am sure this gun was quick to fire, maybe too quick sometimes.

Back to topic though....

That this is not a real Fitz special is obvious, being a Smith, and the fact that barrel is rather long for Fitz's work. He shortened barrels and ejector rods to get the barrel length he wanted. But the seller is not trying to pass it off as Fitz's work either. There were plenty of private enterprises during his time and after that copied his work.

Nonetheless though this is an intresting revolver with what appears to be vintage modifications.

I would love to have Charles Lingburgh's genuine Fitz special 38 New Service.

 

[wnycollector]

This is not a real Fitz special I would not think being a Smith and the fact that barrel is reather long for Fitz's work. He shortened barrels and ejector rods to get the barrel length he wanted. I know of no real Fitzgerald modified Smith and Wessons. I dont know everything though.

I agree its not a real Fitz, just a very well done copy of an interesting design. It should also be noted that the seller is not even mention Fitz in his ad.

 

[Maj Dad]

That's a really a neat and very tempting piece... but instead of adding $25 to his starting price, the shipping is $50. It p___es me off when people feel like they can stiff you on shipping instead of just being upfront on pricing, especially when FFLs can send them legally via Priority Mail for $10-$15 or so.

 

[earlthegoat2]

But the seller is not trying to pass it off as Fitz's work either.

Just like is mentioned here.

 

[Oro]

1. Gawd, that's ugly, with a capital UGH.

I'm usually in this camp when it comes to these chop jobs.

That one is sooo close to being OK - a 1/2 moon front sight and leaving the trigger guard alone would have made it pretty unique and even more practical. A Jovino "Effector" 1/2 century ahead of time.

 

[smilin-buddha]

I kind of like it

 

[wnycollector]

Just like is mentioned here.

Yep...I missed that!

a 1/2 moon front sight

Yep, everything else about this revolver is "period"...the 1/2 moon would have been much more appropriate.

 

[Old Fuff]

JH Fitzgerald was kinda foolish for doing that to the trigger guard ...

Fitzgerald ("Fitz" to his many friends) was far from foolish, and some of the more well known gunfighters of the 1920's through the 1940's used or recommended them including Charles Askins, Wm. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate - none of which were fools either. The problem is that modern critics haven't the slightest idea why Fitxgerald did what he did or why he did it. Also if the concept was truly danderous it's unlikely the Colt Company would have made them, "in house."

Probably the most famous user was Charles Askins, who even cut away the trigger guard on 1911 style pistols and at least one early S&W model 39. When I was much younger and more stupid I ask him why he did such a thing, "because it was dangerous." He looked at me for a few seconds, and replied using language I can't use on this forum because of Art's Grandma, that "If I ever got into a shooting and survived (which he obviously considered would be unlikely) I would quickly discover that there were many more dangerous things to worry about then a cut-away trigger guard."

There just might be a remote possibility that he was right. He lived long enough to die in bed from old age.

 

[Zundfolge]

The problem is that modern critics haven't the slightest idea why Fitxgerald did what he did or why he did it.

So whats the advantage?

Other than the fact that the trigger guard is no longer guarding the trigger, it also looks like it would get caught while stuffing it into a holster or pocket.

 

[Oro]

Other than the fact that the trigger guard is no longer guarding the trigger, it also looks like it would get caught while stuffing it into a holster or pocket.

Look closely. That's why it's bent upward at the cut to meet the trigger. It reduces that chance. There's no doubt this gun was well-thought out and carefully crafted. The S&W double-action pull is strong enough it's safe in a protected pocket or holster.

That is an interesting revolver with some careful, skilled work applied to it. Note also the way the frame at the yoke barrel has been smoothed and rounded to smooth carry. But in the "unfortunate" category is the detail of the hammer. It's an extremely early one with serrated sides. That was probably an exceptionally early gun and unmodified would have been a real collector.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Would the the correct word be "Fitzified", or "Fitzlike", "pseudoFitz"?

 

[wnycollector]

Fitz-esque possibly

 

[Old Fuff]

The Fitz trigger guard conversion wasn't as popular on Smith & Wesson's because a screw, spring and plunger that tensioned the cylinder stop was nested in the front/top web of the guard, which prevented the guard from being cut fully away. This wasn't the case with similar Colts.

The original concept was a revolver to be carried in the side pocket of one's pants. Rather then use a holster Fitzgerald had his pants fitted with special leather pockets, and sometimes he carried not one, but two guns.

Other features included cutting off the hammer spur and checkering the top, rounding the bottom of the butt, and sometimes making it shorter, installing a (give or take) 2 inch barrel and cutting the ejector rod to match, and carefully hand tuning the action.

The trigger guard was cut away so that a user could get their finger on the trigger, even in the tight confines of a pocket - and if necessary fire while the revolver was still in the pocket. This of course would only be done in an extreme emergency. Removing the front of the guard also reduced some of the revolver overall bulk. Considering the weight of the double-action trigger pull, safety was not an issue.

While Colt made the guns they did not catalog them. They were a special order item for certain special people, who for the most part were law enforcement officers of one kind or another, or members of one of the military services.

Not all Fitz Specials were pocket sized however. A few were ordered with full length barrels, and with or without hammer spurs.

Fitzgerald, as well has his usually hand picked customers, knew that a gunfight could be close and quick. One could stand with his hand in a pocket with it holding the gun and ready to draw - while not appearing to be threatening or even armed. No other way was as fast. His modifications were intended to make things slightly more sure (nothing to snag during a draw) and a bit faster (finger on the trigger and ready to go).

The professional gunfighters of the Fitz era that used his "Special's" would I think, look at today's Internet critics and just grin.

In a conversation, Jeff Cooper once said that one's opinion on anything was as valuable as their experience and knowledge of the subject. Does anyone here claim to know more about gunfighting and gunfights from actual experience then the individuals I mentioned in my earlier post?

Thought not...

 

[6_gunner]

I really like that modified Smith. Very unique. Looks like it was done by a competent gunsmith.

I'd be kind of concerned about the modifications to the butt of the gun, though. The serial number would have to have been removed from the frame in order for the grip to have been rounded like that. Unless the serial number was restored, there might be some question of legality.

 

[Hastings]

I've always wondered about holstering and carrying one of these modified revolvers with the front of the trigger guard removed. The added risk doesn't seem worth the miniscule advantage, and I have a hard time believing a well-practiced shooter would actually experience any advantage with the trigger-guard modification.

I know a close-quarters qunfight is ugly, and bears little resemblance to a timed shooting event, but I also think that to some extent gun trends are ruled by survival of the fittest. If the advantages mentioned were really that substantial, why didn't these mods become more prevalent, and why did the style fad into the realm of obscurity. Legal issues aside, there are more proponents of standard trigger-guard configuration than for the fitz sytle. As far as hanging up on clothing I think the gap between the trigger and guard would be more likely to pinch on clothing either during carry or if the trigger was pulled while in a pocket. It would also be easier for an assailant to pry the gun from your hand, or pull the trigger for you while it was aimed at a portion of your body during a scuffle. Speed is only one factor (albeit a very crucial one) in an armed encounter.

I've fired revolvers from inside a jacket pocket, and pants pocket for practice, and aiming is guesswork at best. In addition to having your coat catch fire, the cylinder blast can shred the fabric which then easily binds the cylinder and trigger in certain circumstances. Material also is drawn back down the barrel in a similar fashion to blood and flesh entering a barrel when slaughtering farm animals. This can bind the gun's action as well. I suggest anyone who carries a small pistol in their pocket with the idea that they may have to shoot it from within the pocket give it a try. A coat pocket is doable, but certainly not prefered. Pants pocket fire is extremely difficult and will likely ensure you don't pass the practice on to offspring. I tried it, once. I admit I am no expert when it comes to anything, let alone gunfighting. I hope to remain completely inexperienced in that category, but I'd rather bet my life on a good pocket-holstered unmodified j-frame and lots of practice at drawing the weapon from various positions.

 

[Old Fuff]

In this particular case, the serial number is also stamped on the rear face of the cylinder and rear/bottom of the barrel. If these numbers weren't removed the gun's owner or potential future buyers wouldn't be in any trouble.

Also of course, the gunsmith that made the conversion could legally restamp the number on the butt - so long as the number matched those on the cylinder and barrel.

 

[Gordon]

I remember the arguements between the NYPD detectives (of whom my Uncle Gill was one) when I was a youngster in Chic Gaylord's hang out gunshop. The "Fitz" was highly reguarded by those EXCEPT the ones whose trigger guard bent up just enough that the gun wouldn't fire.Unsupported and thinned down steel bent up close to the trigger?

 

[Old Fuff]

I've always wondered about holstering and carrying one of these modified revolvers with the front of the trigger guard removed.

Why? Given the fact that the double-action trigger pulls were around an average of 10 pounds, and they weren't carried cocked, experienced users who got their guns from Colt didn't have any problems. If real rather then theoretical problems had come about Colt wouldn't have continued to make them.

The added risk doesn't seem worth the miniscule advantage,

Those who had actual gunfight experience knew that any advantage was not miniscule. Such things were often measured in fractions of a second, and determined who would, or might not come out alive.

I have a hard time believing a well-practiced shooter would actually experience any advantage with the trigger-guard modification.

Obviously some of the more experienced gunfighters of the time didn't agree with you. But then they may have not had your insights...

This one is certainly nicely done, and if it had an intact trigger-guard I would be in the bidding.

Oh well, I suspect that someone else will. I'm sure there are others available with intact trigger guards.