S&W M41 failure to extract

[cavman]

Before shooting, I was demonstrating to a new shooter how to properly empty a Smith and Wesson Model 41 .22 (magazine out, then, rack the slide).

I showed her why it was important to do it in that order; so as not to have a round left in the chamber, potentially, if done in reverse order!

When I dropped the mag with the last round in the chamber, and then racked the slide, the round did not extract.

All shooting afterward extracted all the rounds properly, just not manually.

It will not manually extract with either the magazine in or out. My other M41 does just fine (the older, 1974, Springfield, MA one) to manually extract.

Trying to figure out what was up I took the things apart and did some comparison. Taking the slide of the one the works, (1974) off, I tried to depress the extractor. It didn't really have much give when compared to the newer, 2008, Houlton, ME pistol. My thinking here was that if the new 2008 extractor was able to be depressed, maybe it was closing the gap that catches the rim, keeping it from grabbing it?

The newer extractor, when depressed, had quite a bit of give when depressed with the finger. Could that be it?

I cleaned out a little bit of crud on the breech face where the .22 cartridge sits, but that made no difference.

So it will extract fine under firing conditions, but i need to take a little knife/screwdriver and pick out an unfired cartridge.

any suggestions?

 

[NCsmitty]

Looking at the schematic at Numrich's, I would replace the extractor plunger and spring. You might be missing the plunger or the spring might have fractured.
As you surmised, the blow back of the fired case is kicking the round out.

www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=8032

I would replace #71 & #72, they seem to be reasonably priced.



NCSmitty

 

[30Remington]

Let us know if you figure this out. I have a 41 with two barrels one does it the other doesn't. It's been back to Smith and Wesson they put a new bolt in it. Still does it . The only thing I've noticed is an unfired round does seem to stick in the chamber more than fired empty brass. Seems like the extractor just can't grip it enough to pull it free.

 

[cavman]

So why not? I ordered the parts that NCsmitty suggested. $5.20 plust $4.95 S&H.

I tried to put the barrel of the 1974 Mass on the 2008 Maine to see if the non working 2008 extractor could work with the 1974 barrel. But they don't fit together so I couldn't test that out.

This is actually the second time I have had problems with this 2008 Houlton, ME M41. The first time the groove on the barrel, where the extractor should fit into, did not align with the extractor.

If I remember correctly, the extractor rammed into the barrel, too high above its little slot. I sent it back and they ground out the groove, making it wider, so it could enter a space in front of the cartridge rim to grab it and pull it out.

Since then, ~2008? there hasn't been a problem that i remember. However, I bought the 1974 version to have as a backup and like it better; in terms of: a better cosmetic finish; and the grip was ever so slightly thinner (and even though I have pretty decent sized hands, I preferred it to the thicker 2008 Houlton, ME; and it handled more .22 varieties than the Houlton, ME one which liked fewer varieties that it would function with.

So, maybe this is just something that I haven't caught in a long time and has actually been there the whole time?

We will see if I can remedy this with a couple of parts. Wish me luck! or it needs to go back to Maine.

 

[Owen]

check the edge of the chamber for peening by the firing pin

 

[rcmodel]

A S&W Model 41 firing pin simply cannot hit the breach face.

They are high grade Match pistols, and are designed to be safely dry-fired for hours on end if that's what you want to do.

rc

 

[velocette]

Owen, you have a point. My M41 had the top of the chamber mouth slightly peened from the firing pin striking it. Yes RC, its not supposed to but on mine it sure did.
A little work with a fine round stone removed the peening (which did in fact protrude into the chamber) & slightly chamfered the edge of the chamber.
You need to understand that my m41 has had a bare minimum of 100,000 rds through it and has been dry fired a significant amount also. It also shows wear on the boltface from all the rounds run through it.
Still shoot Xs though. Best $ I ever spent on a target pistol.

Roger

 

[cavman]

I checked the chamber face. The 2008, the one with the problem, has a visible firing pin impression, but sooooo faint.

It is only visible with a LED lighted 30x loupe however. (best $5 I have spent). An impression of the firing pin is able to be discerned but, although there, it has no noticeable effect on the chamber wall.

I have dry fired this gun maybe a total of 10 times. (I took a Bullseye clinic and we were instructed to dry fire before actually shooting). Other than that I haven't as I was under the impression to never fire pretty much any rim fire except for a Ruger.

Taking the M41 apart last night I found that there was a pin that goes through a groove in the firing pin. Is this a firing pin stop? It sure seems like it could be one.

If so, why is there an indentation, even if ever so slight on the chamber face?

(the older, 1974 M41, with no problems, has no firing pin mark at all. I have never dry fired this, and perhaps the previous owner didn't either.)

As I can see a mark on the 2008 one with a known quantity of dry fires, I am hesitant to continue. (However, I would love to, and am thinking of replacing with pistols that can be dry fired)

So, I don't think there is any peening to explain the issue.
Can I actually dry fire my M41?

 

[Owen]

I've had the problem on my M41. I don't believe M41's can be dry-fired without damage.

 

[cavman]

Received the extractor spring just now. Took it apart and replace the spring. There was nothing obviously wrong with the original spring.

Put it back together with new spring. (Don't try this at home kids, quite a pain. Thumb of right hand was holding the firing pin block, the middle finger was on the opposite end to hold and then the coup de gras was use the index finger to push in against the firing pin. The trick was to actually lift up the firing block just a bit so the pin could go through the hole. Took a while to figure that one out).

The round does come out now, maybe halfway only however. The extractor lets go of the round. The funny thing is the round then sometimes shoots back into the chamber as if it was coming from a vaccuum!

If I hold the muzzle straight up in the air it will extract. But I would rather not have to have the muzzle up in the air if I don't have to.

I decided to see if the chamber of the 1974 might be a tiny bit looser so I switched the barrel over to the 2008 and Voila!, it now extracts!

However the 2008 does not fit on the the 1974! arrrgh. It barrel is too wide to fit in the the slide. So I can't really do a swap

 

[NCsmitty]

Glad to hear that you got your parts, sad to hear they didn't totally solve your problem. Just keep popping the primers and keep breaking it in.
Good shooting.



NCsmitty

 

[Jim K]

Like many .22's, that barrel has a curved cut in it to allow the extractor hook to grab the rim of the case. If that cut is too shallow, the extractor can be held out away from the case and not properly engage the case rim. That problem can be dealt with in two ways, either deepen the cut in the barrel or remove a tiny bit from the front of the extractor hook, back from the point. Which you choose depends on the situation and what tools you have.

Yes, the extractor of a blowback pistol is used only to remove an unfired or dud round from the chamber; in firing, the gas pressure pushes the case out of the chamber.

Jim

 

[cavman]

Interesting. Thanks Jim Keenan.

I know about the shallow groove. When I first got the M41 in 2008 the groove was not cut correctly, I believe it was a tad too low and the extractor was mashing into the solid face above and not the groove. I sent it back and they made the groove bigger.

This time, now, the extractor lets go after the case has been manually pulled out maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of the way.

Do you still think that the extractor might hold better if the conditions you mentioned were done?

NCsmitty, do you think that chamber tightness with loosen up with time? I have found I like my 1974 one better. (it has in my opinion a nicer fit and finish and also accepts more variety of bullets. It also has a slightly smaller slimmer grip than the 2008 that I prefer). In any case i no longer shoot it as my primary?

 

[NCsmitty]

Do you still think that the extractor might hold better if the conditions you mentioned were done?

cavman, I didn't know if you wanted to carry your problem with the M41 further than replacing the parts.
Jim Keenan's thoughts are correct, and perhaps if you take the time to analyze why the extractor is not holding on to the rim of the case, you might be able to decide on a course of action.
It shouldn't be too complicated to fix, and don't be offended, but I don't know your level of expertise, and they are the thoroughbreds of match pistols.

Treasure that 1974 M41, because as you noticed, they don't make them like that anymore.



NCsmitty