jimbo555
Member
I'm interested in buying a m&p second change 38spl. Revolver. If in good mechanical order can I use modern standard pressure ammo?
s&w model 1905
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Delawarean
Member
Yes, S&W says that their steel revolvers before model #s (pre 50s) are not rated for +p though.
Everything I've read says that the .38 Special of yesterday was much closer to todays +p so I wouldn't worry.
Everything I've read says that the .38 Special of yesterday was much closer to todays +p so I wouldn't worry.
rswartsell
Member
Smith and Wesson began heat treating cylinders along about 1920. The S&W .38 Special cartidge was introduced for the Hand Ejector in late 1898. It was originally stoked with black powder, changing over to smokeless within about a year, but still tame enough for 19th century black powder spitting metallurgy.
The heat treating instills additional strength, but even in '29 S&W met the prohibition era demand for more power due to auto windshields and rudimentary body armour by using a .44 frame to house the likes of the S&W .38/.44, not exactly a .38 Special.
In '35 Elmer Keith, Phillip B. Sharpe, and Colonel D. B. Wesson changed the .38 power game entirely by developing the .357. To make this more complex and allow a bit more long winded rant, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) was created in 1926 to set industry standards and to quote Wikipedia...
"It is important to recognize that SAAMI changed the specifications for the .38 Special in 1972. Prior to that time the standard .38 Special was very close to today's "+P" cartridges."
It is nonetheless true that +P like pressures and performance did not arrive for standard .38 special until the 1950's, long AFTER Smith produced this revolver. That is if you exclude .38/.44, Hi-Vel, etc. as categories unto themselves.
After all that, I own a Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change Target manufactured in 1910. The old boy has handled a few fairly stout standard ('pre '72 standards) 158 gr LSW in my hands but very few and doesn't particulary like them, expressing it's discomfort by backing out the rear sight horizontal screw. No more of THAT, then.
This weapon is now at least semi-retired but never complained a lick about 148 gr match loaded wadcutters, and will flat shoot with them. I suspect limiting yourself to similar is a good, conservative idea. No way would I feed my old pre-heat treating baby a modern defense oriented semi-jacketed +P. I could probably get away with a little of such shenanigans, but why?
I will not put myself in a position of need to use even post '72 standard pressure 158 gr LSWHP (think FBI load and Buffalo Bore, but post '72 standard pressure). I suspect that a lot of LRN loads would be OK, I just don't find a use for them. I pay attention to not just the pressure, but also the bullet mounted and the suitability for purpose of the weapon.
I would definitely set a limit at post '72 standard pressure, I would avoid jacketed rounds and IMHO the 148 gr wadcutter is a better round for all purposes, even defense than the LRN standard pressure (aka "The Widow Maker" meaning police officer's that had to use them widows). Preserve this piece of history by choosing a more recent Smith (like a 10-5) for hardcore banging and enjoy a truly fine lockwork in the context that shows it off the best.
The heat treating instills additional strength, but even in '29 S&W met the prohibition era demand for more power due to auto windshields and rudimentary body armour by using a .44 frame to house the likes of the S&W .38/.44, not exactly a .38 Special.
In '35 Elmer Keith, Phillip B. Sharpe, and Colonel D. B. Wesson changed the .38 power game entirely by developing the .357. To make this more complex and allow a bit more long winded rant, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) was created in 1926 to set industry standards and to quote Wikipedia...
"It is important to recognize that SAAMI changed the specifications for the .38 Special in 1972. Prior to that time the standard .38 Special was very close to today's "+P" cartridges."
It is nonetheless true that +P like pressures and performance did not arrive for standard .38 special until the 1950's, long AFTER Smith produced this revolver. That is if you exclude .38/.44, Hi-Vel, etc. as categories unto themselves.
After all that, I own a Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change Target manufactured in 1910. The old boy has handled a few fairly stout standard ('pre '72 standards) 158 gr LSW in my hands but very few and doesn't particulary like them, expressing it's discomfort by backing out the rear sight horizontal screw. No more of THAT, then.
This weapon is now at least semi-retired but never complained a lick about 148 gr match loaded wadcutters, and will flat shoot with them. I suspect limiting yourself to similar is a good, conservative idea. No way would I feed my old pre-heat treating baby a modern defense oriented semi-jacketed +P. I could probably get away with a little of such shenanigans, but why?
I will not put myself in a position of need to use even post '72 standard pressure 158 gr LSWHP (think FBI load and Buffalo Bore, but post '72 standard pressure). I suspect that a lot of LRN loads would be OK, I just don't find a use for them. I pay attention to not just the pressure, but also the bullet mounted and the suitability for purpose of the weapon.
I would definitely set a limit at post '72 standard pressure, I would avoid jacketed rounds and IMHO the 148 gr wadcutter is a better round for all purposes, even defense than the LRN standard pressure (aka "The Widow Maker" meaning police officer's that had to use them widows). Preserve this piece of history by choosing a more recent Smith (like a 10-5) for hardcore banging and enjoy a truly fine lockwork in the context that shows it off the best.
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Radagast
Member
I would stick with lead only, standard pressure loads in any pre-1920 S&W. I've noted a few guns from that period have replacement barrels, certainly more reports than of replacements after 1930, even though there are many more guns made after 1930. There has also been the occasional report of bulged cylinders from that period.
Also remember you are talking about a gun without a hammer block safety. Treat it as a five shooter, leaving the chamber under the hammer empty.
Also remember you are talking about a gun without a hammer block safety. Treat it as a five shooter, leaving the chamber under the hammer empty.
OP
OP
jimbo555
Member
Thanks for all the replies.If the deal happens I'll post a pic.
The S&W .38 Military & Police / 1905 Hand Ejector, 2nd Chg. was made between 1909 and 1915 (approximately) and serial numbers 73,251 to 146,900 (again approximately). The exact date and serial numbers were not recorded. The difference between the 1st, 2nd. and 3rd changes mostly involved minor internal modifications, and none had heat treated cylinders.
To compare smokeless powder ammunition pressures between then and now is questionable, because during the 1909 to 1915 era they had no way to accurately measure pressure, but the revolvers were test fired and targeted. At no time did they gain a reputation for blowing up.
That said, any 2nd. change model is now over or close to a century old. While they are probably safe to shoot with current .38 Special cartridges, the issue is by no means certain. Were I to shoot one it would be on seldom occasions, and with 148 grain mid-range cartridges.
If shooting is an important consideration I suggest one purchase a .38, 1905 Hand Ejector, 4th Chg. with a serial number over 316,648. It's mostly because while it isn't necessary, it is good common sense.
To compare smokeless powder ammunition pressures between then and now is questionable, because during the 1909 to 1915 era they had no way to accurately measure pressure, but the revolvers were test fired and targeted. At no time did they gain a reputation for blowing up.
That said, any 2nd. change model is now over or close to a century old. While they are probably safe to shoot with current .38 Special cartridges, the issue is by no means certain. Were I to shoot one it would be on seldom occasions, and with 148 grain mid-range cartridges.
If shooting is an important consideration I suggest one purchase a .38, 1905 Hand Ejector, 4th Chg. with a serial number over 316,648. It's mostly because while it isn't necessary, it is good common sense.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
I second what most have said. The Model 1905 2nd change was only manufactured from 1906 until 1909. I have one or two Hand Ejectors that are that old, plus a couple more made before 1920. I only shoot light loads in these old guns.
The steel in these guns is 100 or more years old, no need to stress them. I usually shoot light loads, or cowboy loads in these old guns.
I second what most have said. The Model 1905 2nd change was only manufactured from 1906 until 1909. I have one or two Hand Ejectors that are that old, plus a couple more made before 1920. I only shoot light loads in these old guns.
The steel in these guns is 100 or more years old, no need to stress them. I usually shoot light loads, or cowboy loads in these old guns.
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