S&W Model 29 and 629?

[joneb]

I'm wondering what the cylinder throat diameter measure on these guns. Has S&W changed the throat diameter, if so when?
I have a S&W 696 and the throats measure .429" and leading is not a issue. I had a Ruger Red Hawk in .44 Mag. that leaded badly at the forcing cone, the throats measured .434".

 

[adcoch1]

I'm wondering what the cylinder throat diameter measure on these guns. Has S&W changed the throat diameter, if so when?
I have a S&W 696 and the throats measure .429" and leading is not a issue. I had a Ruger Red Hawk in .44 Mag. that leaded badly at the forcing cone, the throats measured .434".

A lot of Ruger's have incorrect throat measurements, but it isn't a common problem on s&w 29 and 629s that I've ever heard about. I've only owned one 29 and it shot cast fine. My redhawk will lead a little if the bullets are .429. honestly though, I've never slugged either of the Ruger's I currently own.

 

[Targa]

If I remember correctly my 629 is in the neighborhood of .430. I have four .44 mags, two of which are Ruger’s ( Blackhawk and Redhawk). I run .431 through everything without any leading to speak of.

 

[Rodfac]

Bullet sizing at 0.430" (wheel weight alloy), has worked in every Smith .44 I've owned or loaded for. Come to think of it, that sizing has also worked with half a dozen Ruger SA Blackhawks as well. No leading with that size in WW alloy, and with the old NRA formula 50-50 lube. Best regards, Rod (But with three Marlin's, my sons and I have needed to go to at least 0.432", as all of them are on the large size and utilize Micro-Groove rifling.)

 

[Slamfire]

I'm wondering what the cylinder throat diameter measure on these guns. Has S&W changed the throat diameter, if so when?
I have a S&W 696 and the throats measure .429" and leading is not a issue. I had a Ruger Red Hawk in .44 Mag. that leaded badly at the forcing cone, the throats measured .434".

All I can say, is that I remember an article claiming that S&W had tightened chamber mouths to 0.429 for a while and that batch of M629's were exceptionally accurate. I have one of that lot, a M629-4 and it is exceptionally accurate, but pressures rise fast. I will take cutting loads as a good trade off for accuracy. I am sure the throats got larger after complaints, and maybe they have gotten tighter again.

As to what Ruger does, or any manufacturer, firstly SAAMI specs are guidance. The manufacturer can follow SAAMI numbers, or do whatever they want. I noticed my Ruger 308 Tactical has huge chamber throats, the case necks expand more than any other 308 barrel I own. I am sure Ruger did this to prevent case neck pinching problems. Pinching problems that create kaboomy problems with reloads. Lots of expansion reduces my case life, (the accuracy is fine), and I am sure big chamber necks reduce Ruger's product liability problems too. Ruger, like all other firearm manufacturers, has liability from lawsuits from reloaders, and owners using ammunition made by Tropical Jack's ammunition company. That's the company where the management and workers arrived stoned, and leave stoned. They ammunition they make varies considerably but at least everyone who works there is happy.

As the President said: "GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!"

I do believe that huge chamber throats in revolvers hurts accuracy. My first S&W 25 in 45LC had 0.456" chamber throats, and 0.452 lead bullets shot dinner plate sized groups. My M25-7 in 45 LC has 0.452" chamber throats, and it is very accurate with 0.452 lead bullets.

You could call Ruger and see if they will do something. If not, and you are still unhappy with your chamber throats you could call Bowen Classic Arms https://bowenclassicarms.com/about.html and see if they will install a new cylinder. Bowen used to do custom work, and their work is top notch. Expect to pay as much for a new cylinder and fitting as you did for your Ruger. Some itches cost a lot to scratch.

 

[black mamba]

I have a 629-4 Classic and a 29-2. The Classic is as Slamfire says, extremely accurate, 3½" groups at 100 yards off sandbags. The 29 is a 4" and has .433-.434" throats. It still shoots commercial PC bullets (.430") OK, but not like the Classic. More like 2-3" groups at 20 yards.

I had a 25-5 with large throats that just would not shoot accurately, even with .454" bullets. Finally replaced it with a 25-9 with .452" throats that shoots beautifully.

 

[Slamfire]

I had a 25-5 with large throats that just would not shoot accurately, even with .454" bullets. Finally replaced it with a 25-9 with .452" throats that shoots beautifully.

Based on my telephone discussions with S&W about my M25-7, the 45LC ball mouth diameter were changed during that production run.


25 March 1991 Talk with Doug Brassard of S&W Customer Service

I asked Doug about the chamber dimensions that were allowable for the 45 Colt. This was in reference to a discussion I had with Lee Precision about their carbide crimp die sizing all the 45 Colt cases with .454 diameter bullets. Doug said that Smith and Wesson belongs to SAAMMI and receives their specifications. Only American ammo and gun manufacturers belong to SAAMMI. In fact PMC once asked him to send them all of his SAAMMI specification books. He told them to go join SAAMMI. Anyway, SAAMMI allows a rear diameter of .4862 nominal plus .004 and .4806 plus .004 for front of the 45 Colt chamber. When I asked him about the 45 Colt ball chamber throat diameters he said that they used to be .4545 to .4565 but now were .452 . Smith and Wesson has its own standards for the barrel dimensions for the 45 Colt and they are : one turn in 20, 5 groove, lands .444 -0.0 + .0012, groove .451 - 0.0 + .0017. For the 45 ACP it is a 6 groove barrel, 1 turn in 15 inches, lands of .443 -0.0 +.0012 and grooves of .450 -0.0 and +.0017. Interestingly enough the SAAMMI specifications for 45 ACP lead bullets and jacketed bullets are different. Jacketed specs are .452 -.003 and lead bullets .453 -.003.

Pre 1989 S&W revolvers in 45ACP are not going to be as accurate as post 1989:


Talk with Doug Brassard 26 Jul 1990

Discussion revolved about a M1917 Brazilian Revolver

The model description for this gun is M1917, not 2nd model hand ejector These Brazilian guns were made from 1937-1945 for the Brazilian Navy.

The serial numbers should match on the barrel, frame and cylinder. The manufacturing numbers were stamped on the side plate left side, yoke, and left side of frame. These numbers are different from the serial numbers. These should be a 5 digit number. Doug said that because of less revolver production, the manufacturing numbers are now 3 digit. The numbers may not match if the gun had a damaged part in process in the factory. Doug has seen all original Smith's where the manufacturing numbers do not match. Evidentially a good part was pulled from a parts bin to replaced the defective one.

The firing pin is not spring loaded. Only on the magnum revolvers were the firing pin spring loaded.

The top screw on the 4 screw side plate is called the bug screw because burrs would often occur at point. The barrels and ball-end chambers for these and all pre-1989 guns are dimensioned for .454 . The barrels and cylinders were made on 45 Long Colt equipment.

The older guns had the internal parts fitted twice. Once before heat treatment "soft fitting", and once after heat treatment "hard fitting". Modern Smiths are only hard fitted. Doug said that the older guns were dri-fired many times before shipment, maybe one hundred times before shipment. Thus they were often smoothed out before the customer got them.

 

[Jim Watson]

The older guns had the internal parts fitted twice. Once before heat treatment "soft fitting", and once after heat treatment "hard fitting". Modern Smiths are only hard fitted. Doug said that the older guns were dri-fired many times before shipment, maybe one hundred times before shipment. Thus they were often smoothed out before the customer got them.

Fascinating. Another gun that was soft fitted, then hard fitted was the Luger.
I read that more recent "milled part" Smiths were "selective assembled" rather than file fitted.
There was one European make, CZ maybe, that was said to be mechanically gymnasticated to "break in" at the factory.

 

[Slamfire]

Fascinating. Another gun that was soft fitted, then hard fitted was the Luger.
I read that more recent "milled part" Smiths were "selective assembled" rather than file fitted.
There was one European make, CZ maybe, that was said to be mechanically gymnasticated to "break in" at the factory.

At a 2700 Bullseye match, talked to a gentleman who worked for Remington Huntsville. As I suspected, no hand fitting at the end of the line for 1911's. The slide and frame came in as forgings, and were machined in the facility. All the other parts, barrel, triggers, sears, hammers, pins, etc were subcontracted out. All these internal parts were finish machined before arrival at Remington's loading dock. Workers simply pulled parts out of boxes and assembled the 1911 without measuring dimensions, adjusting dimensions, or altering the parts in any sort of way. If something was off they could obviously find another part in the box, but there were absolutely no files, hammers, etc at the end of the production line.

This is the way it is done now. I read an article by a man who assembled Pythons in the 1950's. He had a training period where he learned the function of each part, just where to adjust the parts so the mechanism would function. Once he was on the production line he had a quota of pistols he had to produce each day. He was giving a pile of parts and he had to file, bend, hammer those parts to make a functioning Python.

Modern production methods make firearm production a matter of placing the yellow parts in the yellow holes. Assemblers don't have to understand the function of the part, nor of the mechanism. Just wait till AI takes over. There will be less people on the production line. All those on the production line will have to do, is read the instructions on the screen, and do what the AI tells them.

 

[Jim Watson]

Did 1911 USGI contractors do more than assembly?
Have to rerun that US&S film.

Yeah, V spring Colts are different.

An old article on Wilson’s first complete gun, the 1996A1, said the only sign of “fitting” was the hammer-sear engagement.

 

[Slamfire]

Did 1911 USGI contractors do more than assembly?
Have to rerun that US&S film.

Yeah, V spring Colts are different.

An old article on Wilson’s first complete gun, the 1996A1, said the only sign of “fitting” was the hammer-sear engagement.

Every take a bunch of US GI parts and try to make a gun out of them? Did you have to file anything to fit?

US&S pistols were made with WW2 era technology. I am confident to say: sure as hell yes there where assemblers with files, hammers, punches at the end of the production line.

How this for period technology: Valve grinding. Old Joe told me he remembered a Chrysler ad in a 1930 National Graphic Magazine. Chrysler claimed you could go 30,000 miles without having to grind the cylinder head valves! I seldom grind the valves in my vehicles, guess technology has moved on.

Here, in a 1932 Chrysler Imperial Owners manual, page 52, is a section about grinding valves.

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/stat..._Book/1932 Imperial Instruction Book-052.html

Guess that was something ever car owner needed to do back then. Do you think they gapped the cylinder rings in the factory? Maybe measured bearing and journal thickness during assembly? Do you remember back in the 1960's blue printing engines because if you hot rodded an engine without measuring all the parts, it would throw a rod. Remember that?