El Tejon
Member
South, think that's right, as did the 940, IIRC. Sold more than a few of these circa '88-'92.
S&W serial number locations? Defaced pistol, allegedly . . .
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El Tejon
Member
Saw prosecutor this morning at coffee shoppe this morning. Said hello and in my usual suave manner, "you know, about that pistol case, there's this gun nut website and if you look it up and read the federal regulation and I don't want to waste your time with a deposition and, oh, the hearing on the motion to dismiss and calling your officers and wasting their time, yack, yack, yack . . ."
Came back from court at lunch. Secretary had placed a nolle (Nolle Prosequi--stop pursuit, i.e., dismissal) as to that count on my desk!
Thanks for your help, gentlemen. THR indeed.
Came back from court at lunch. Secretary had placed a nolle (Nolle Prosequi--stop pursuit, i.e., dismissal) as to that count on my desk!
Thanks for your help, gentlemen. THR indeed.
Southpaw:
S&W makes and serial numbers frames well in advance of production. I suspect your particular revolver was serial numbered in both places because of the possibility that oversized grips might be installed on it. As things worked out they used the smaller "service" grips. By numbering the frame in both places they left themselves with a full choice of grip options.
El Tejon:
Outstanding!! I am delighted at the outcome.
S&W makes and serial numbers frames well in advance of production. I suspect your particular revolver was serial numbered in both places because of the possibility that oversized grips might be installed on it. As things worked out they used the smaller "service" grips. By numbering the frame in both places they left themselves with a full choice of grip options.
El Tejon:
Outstanding!! I am delighted at the outcome.
Archie
Member
You've piqued my curiousity, El Tejon.
What was the charge, possession of weapon with altered serial number?
How did it come to the attention of the 'authorities'?
This sounds like a two-beer story.
What was the charge, possession of weapon with altered serial number?
How did it come to the attention of the 'authorities'?
This sounds like a two-beer story.
El Tejon
Member
Arch, Possession of Handgun with Obliterated Markings, Indiana Code 35-47-2-18, Class C Felony (2 to 8, presumptive 4).
Soon-to-be-ex-husband goes back to marital residence in city in alleged violation of purported protective order. Couple of hours later, deputy Sheriff allegedly sees ex-husband's truck parked near orchard. Ex-husband answering Nature's call and comes out of orchard. Deputy sez, "What's all this then?" Sheriff finds a couple of other matters, but of much lesser concern than C felony, a la SuperTroopers, "littering and, littering and . . ."
Pick your life partner wisely. So much of life's unhappiness, including attorney fees, can be avoided by domestic bliss.
Soon-to-be-ex-husband goes back to marital residence in city in alleged violation of purported protective order. Couple of hours later, deputy Sheriff allegedly sees ex-husband's truck parked near orchard. Ex-husband answering Nature's call and comes out of orchard. Deputy sez, "What's all this then?" Sheriff finds a couple of other matters, but of much lesser concern than C felony, a la SuperTroopers, "littering and, littering and . . ."
Pick your life partner wisely. So much of life's unhappiness, including attorney fees, can be avoided by domestic bliss.
SouthpawShootr
Member
This sort of thing has the potential to be a royal pooch screw. They need to get their act together and be consistent in the way they serial number their guns. This is a very important issue, since fewer and fewer bureaucrats have any experience with firearms.
Southpaw:
Over the years none of the gunmakers has been consistant relative to other companies, and somtimes within their own operation. At the moment I believe that S&W is numbering their gun on the frame under the barrel, where it is hidden when the yoke is closed. Colt does the same on the relatively few double-action/hand ejector revolvers they make. Ruger stamps the serial number on the right side of the frame under the trigger guard.
But that's the way it is now, and older guns were sometimes numbered differently.
Other then on yokes/cranes and sideplates the practice of using assembly numbers is mostly gone.
I would think that any crime lab tech would know enought to take off the grips when examining a handgun for serial numbers. If in doubt a quick telephone call to the manufacture would bring an answer. The real problem is people who think they know it all when they don't.
Over the years none of the gunmakers has been consistant relative to other companies, and somtimes within their own operation. At the moment I believe that S&W is numbering their gun on the frame under the barrel, where it is hidden when the yoke is closed. Colt does the same on the relatively few double-action/hand ejector revolvers they make. Ruger stamps the serial number on the right side of the frame under the trigger guard.
But that's the way it is now, and older guns were sometimes numbered differently.
Other then on yokes/cranes and sideplates the practice of using assembly numbers is mostly gone.
I would think that any crime lab tech would know enought to take off the grips when examining a handgun for serial numbers. If in doubt a quick telephone call to the manufacture would bring an answer. The real problem is people who think they know it all when they don't.
El Tejon
Member
cordex, good facts make good lawyers.
When I look at it, it appeared that it had been punched and then sanded. Darn good job though, best one I had seen, especially considering it was a 66 and not a 19.
When I look at it, it appeared that it had been punched and then sanded. Darn good job though, best one I had seen, especially considering it was a 66 and not a 19.
grendelbane
Member
Very interesting. My Colt 1917 has the number on the butt listed on the yellow sheet. Yet the number under the crane is the actual serial number.
I am assuming that the number on the butt was a number that the army used for its own purposes?
My Ruger Security-Six has the serial number on the butt. Which is covered up by Pachmayr grips. I always have a screwdriver in my car just in case.
Please tell me that no one has ever been charged for covering up, (not obliterating), a serial number!
All this makes me wish that I had bought that Colt Gov't model I saw 16 years ago. The one with no serial number whatsoever! It had not been removed, it had never been stamped.
Was it a special "sanitized" WWII piece? Or was it a "lunchbox gun", that a Colt employee took home?
Enquiring minds want to know!
I am assuming that the number on the butt was a number that the army used for its own purposes?
My Ruger Security-Six has the serial number on the butt. Which is covered up by Pachmayr grips. I always have a screwdriver in my car just in case.
Please tell me that no one has ever been charged for covering up, (not obliterating), a serial number!
All this makes me wish that I had bought that Colt Gov't model I saw 16 years ago. The one with no serial number whatsoever! It had not been removed, it had never been stamped.
Was it a special "sanitized" WWII piece? Or was it a "lunchbox gun", that a Colt employee took home?
Enquiring minds want to know!
1. The number on the butt of your 1917 Colt is the U.S. Army's number, and they used it for purposes of Identification. No. 1 was the first revolver delivered against the first contract issued by the government to Colt for these particular guns, and they went on from there.
No, you can legally cover a number so long as you don't alter it. This is one reason Ruger now stamps the serial on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard and a little in front of it.
The government never ordered any non-serial numbered Colt .45 automatics because their source would have been obvious. The OSS and CIA both used various commercial or battlefield captured firearms that couldn't be traced back to them on the relatively few times they cared.
No, you can legally cover a number so long as you don't alter it. This is one reason Ruger now stamps the serial on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard and a little in front of it.
The government never ordered any non-serial numbered Colt .45 automatics because their source would have been obvious. The OSS and CIA both used various commercial or battlefield captured firearms that couldn't be traced back to them on the relatively few times they cared.
unspellable
Member
I have seen a DWM era Luger with absolutely no markings whatsoever and still in the white. It was presumed to be a lunchbox special.
Some years ago I bought a Webley Mark VI. It had been serial numbered by Webley as usual and passed into the possesion of the British Military. It was then surplussed off to the the Irish Royal Constabulary where, for God only knows what reason, they struck out the original serial number (But still legible.) and stamped one of their own. This caused a double take when I took it to register it in Michigan and required a letter from the importer to pacify the local authorities.
Some years ago I bought a Webley Mark VI. It had been serial numbered by Webley as usual and passed into the possesion of the British Military. It was then surplussed off to the the Irish Royal Constabulary where, for God only knows what reason, they struck out the original serial number (But still legible.) and stamped one of their own. This caused a double take when I took it to register it in Michigan and required a letter from the importer to pacify the local authorities.
The serial # is on the frame INSIDE the opening for the YOKE or CRANE (S&W v. Colt nomenclature) and on the butt of the frame. At least on any Smiths I've owned. Don't own anything with any keyholes, tac lites, holosights, battery compartments, etc. 
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MikeB
Member
I have several 1911's that have no serial number. Home built - doesn't require a serial number.
jaysouth
Member
MikeB
Are these the so-called 80% guns? Where can one find more information?
Who do you buy the frames from?
Thanks
Are these the so-called 80% guns? Where can one find more information?
Who do you buy the frames from?
Thanks
MikeB
Member
They were 80% frames yes. I get them from many different places, shotgun news and the like have ads for them.
I suppose this is getting a bit off topic though. I was originally trying to point out that the lack or location of a serial number isn't really an indication of the legality of said firearm.
I suppose this is getting a bit off topic though. I was originally trying to point out that the lack or location of a serial number isn't really an indication of the legality of said firearm.
unspellable
Member
Serial numbers required?
It was my impression that the federal firearms law passed in the 30's required a serial number on centerfire rifles and all handguns manufactured after the effective date.
It was my impression that the federal firearms law passed in the 30's required a serial number on centerfire rifles and all handguns manufactured after the effective date.
MikeB
Member
Only for licensed manufacturers of fireams. If a private citizen builds their own - then no. You have to start with with a block of metal or a partial frame, like an 80% complete frame for it to be legal. These 80% frames require sufficient machining that the ATF doesn't consider them to be a firearm. They are not serialized at the factory, and as such do not have a serial number when completed either. They also generally cannot be sold, although there are ways to do this legally. Also this will all depend greatly on the state in which you reside.
unspellable
Member
Homa made firearm
So what are the federal regulations on whittling my own pistol out of a block of metal?
So what are the federal regulations on whittling my own pistol out of a block of metal?
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