SA for CCW?

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I have read this thread and some I agree with while others I don't.

Is a single action revolver a good choice? I don't think could or would ever tell somebody it was, but it is what I carry and shoot almost exclusively.

There are time and people that this is the best choice for. Myself, I have some issues with my left hand that makes shooting other platforms hard. I practice with my single actions often. I shoot IDPA with them. Bowling pin matches. Pretty much anything I wish to shoot. On any stage that does not require a reload my times are right there with other good shooters. My accuracy is always good. I think that comes from focusing on the platform.

I do not use powder puff loads. A 250 grain lead bullet over 9.0 grains Universal.

I conceal a Vaquero or Blackhawk in either a mernickle PA6SA or pancake. In a good holster it is easy to conceal.

A choice of what somebody carries is always framed by what one believes is best or correct or reasonable. The problem is that may not be a fact, but rather a belief. From my perspective nobody should carry a semi automatic as I have problems shooting them with my weak hand. Does that then mean they aren't a good choice? Even I laugh at that. The truth is you must carry and use what you are comfortable with or that nagging thought will be with you. What if.....?

Carry what you want and what works for you.

Fred
 
John Wayne's character J.B. Books in the film "The Shootist" summed it up perfectly while explaining his success as a gunfighter to Ron Howard.

"Gillam. It's not always about being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I've found that most men, regardless of need or purpose...aren't willing. They'll take a breath or blink an eye before they pull the trigger. I won't."
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I was reading the other day, I believe this was in Triggernometry, that there is a misconception about the meaning of the word "quick." Most people have taken it to mean fast in the draw and firing. However, the way in which it was usually meant was that they wouldn't hesitate one iota in making the decision to kill or in doing so.

That said I'll toss my hat in this ring: Is a SA revolver the most efficient for self defense? No. I think claiming that when comparing apples to apples (extremely proficient with SA vs. extremely proficient with anything else, or average vs. average) the SA is equal or superior is wishful thinking. HOWEVER: In a fight between somebody truly good with a SA under pressure vs. one or several gang banging rappers with Glocks, I'd put decent money on the shootist.
 
Jimbothefiveth:
David E, you sir haven't a clue what you are talking about.
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<sigh>.......I didn't say the line you apparently attributed to me. It was Scottishclaymore in Post #29

Or is there something else? If so, please be specific.
 
Qwert65:
David E I understand your points. My point was that yes I agree, shooting fullhouse 45colt loads slows me down. You had made a statement that it was not possible to be as fast shooting as DA as SA with a competent defense load. I can tell you for a fact that I can draw and fire and hit a target at 7yds using 45acp SD loads in my BH just as quick as a double action.
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With one hand or two?

I agree that two hands can be as fast, if not quicker than, a DA revolver for most people for 6 shots.

One handed, not so much. But I understand the dynamic you are referring to.

.
 
Here's a thought I had: instead of speculating or recalling past achievements with this or that gun, I'm going to put some actual times to it.

I am going to compare firing 5 shots, one handed, on a 5 yd IPSC target with a single action revolver (.45 ACP Ruger Bisley) a double action revolver (.45 ACP S&W 625) and a semi-auto (Colt .45 ACP 1911) "A" zone only hits to count. 4 "A's" and one "C" will cancel out the run no matter how fast, so accuracy counts. Same load for all 3 guns.

I will use a shot timer (not a stopwatch or second hand) and start with the gun in hand, held down at a 45* angle. The SA will start hammer down, thumb on hammer spur. DA, finger inside trigger guard. 1911, safety on, finger off. Times will include the reaction to the start signal.

I'll post the results.

Now, some may say that "it just shows that you suck with gun type X, Munden/Miculek/Leatham could do it faster."

Well, yes, they could, but that's not the point. The point is, I won't have any of those guys standing next to me when I might need to shoot for blood, but _I_ will be there, so how _I_ do with this or that gun is immensely important.

If some other folks want to do the same thing, that would be great, but I don't want it to turn into a "I'm faster than you are" kinda thing.

I am going to clear my head as best I can of any prejudices that may exist, so I can compare the different platforms as evenly as possible.

This should be interesting, if not enlightening.

.
 
David E., sounds interesting, let us know how the experiment goes. It will only be valid if you are equally proficient with all the test guns, though.

Years back, one the gun mags did the ole' SA vs. DA revolver thing. They pitted one of the the best with each against each other, on the clock. The outcome, from the holster, IIRC, was the first two shots were comparable. Past that, and in the reload, the DA was decidely faster. And the SA was as fast on the first two only by slipping the thumb off the hammer.


As far as "others" goes, if the SA was faster, wouldn't Miculek be using it?
 
David E I want to ask before anybody else does. Do the fireams wiegh the same? same barrel lenght? same twist rate? are you using the same grain bullet and same powder charge? but most importinantly are you holding you mouth the same? Please take this as a joke. to some people this is relavant, to me you taking the time to shoot and post your findings is more relavant.
 
It will only be valid if you are equally proficient with all the test guns, though.
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to some people this is relavant, to me you taking the time to shoot and post your findings is more relavant.
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This isn't a test of merely the platforms, but also the shooter with the guns he has - it's a test that will validate his view of himself with the irons he has, shooting equal loads.

"all else is not equal". Differences in barrel lengths, gun weights, etc. would be good color for the context, but pretending that all variables can be accounted for in order to get a 100% objective analysis is overly optimistic.

Dave E, thanks for volunteering to do such an interesting test. I hope folks won't beat him up over it. This is a test that any shooter with multiple defensive arm choices should do. I'd love to see as many data points as possible from other people doing the same test with their own favored gear in each action type. I don't have a shot timer or a range where I can shoot at full speed. :-(

As far as "others" goes, if the SA was faster, wouldn't Miculek be using it?
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You can't moonclip a SA, so I doubt it. But if you made a 'speed pin' and gave him 3 extra cylinders on his belt, I bet he'd impress you after only a day's practice. Dropping the empties in the dirt would be painful to watch, tho.

Actually.... you COULD moon-clip a SA, but you'd have to pull the cylinder to unload it. then re-load, throw it back in. Might be surprisingly quick if the shells didn't stick in the chambers....

Jim, is your Vaqhawk ready for more mods??

-Daizee
 
David E, I'm sorry but that's still not a fair comparison.

The Ruger Bisley, while an accurate target or hunting revolver, is notably slower to cock one-handed than a standard plowhandle grip is.

If you shoot a Ruger Bisley, it's no wonder you don't think one-handed shooting can be done quickly. Even a regular Blackhawk, while I prefer it for accuracy shooting, does not have a true one-handed grip like a Colt SAA or clone, or a New Vaquero/Anniversary Blackhawk.

WRT powder-puff loads, I don't think my 158 grains over 17 grains of IMR 4227 is a light .357 load...:)

I'm still not arguing that a SAA is a better CCW revolver than a 642. I never was. I just think that people who haven't practiced, with the right gun not a Ruger Bisley, really know how fast some people can shoot a SAA or similar revolver one handed.

With that, maybe I'll go out and blast off a few rounds and practice it, myself...
 
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My first handgun was a Colt .22 Peacemaker. I've fired untold 1000's of rounds thru it

My first centerfire single action was a Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I shot it a lot, also, as I was young and had a good place to practice. It's based on these guns that I base my comments.

I recognize that the Bisley isn't the best SA to use for this comparison, but right now, it's all I have in a centerfire SA.

Monday, that'll change, as I'll have a Ruger 50th Anniversary .357. Maybe I'll also do it with that, a 686 (and/or 66) and a Colt 1911 chambered in 9x23

I suppose I could also use my Colt Peacemaker .22, a S&W Kitgun and a Buckmark, but that would eliminate the recoil generated roll and time frame between accurate shots. Maybe the .22 SA against the centerfires ?

Yes, it'll just test ME. Just as your tests would only test YOU. That's the point, isn't it ? To see how YOU do with your chosen gun?

But it's silly to take someone's word that they're "both equal" when they say in the same sentence that they don't practice !

Just last week on "Cowboys," two champion CAS shooters (Tequila and Lead Dispenser) went head to head with a SA and 1911. Two handed, they tied. Then it was the SA and a double action. The SA beat out the DA by 2 shots, but again, that was two handed. I'd be curious how Jerry Miculek would've fared. Judging the "split times," the DA would've prevailed outright, but barely.

They didn't run a comparison one handed, which is the focus of many of my comments in this thread.

I ain't Bob Munden, but maybe I'm Jerry's better looking, long lost brother..... :D
 
WRT powder-puff loads, I don't think my 158 grains over 17 grains of IMR 4227 is a light .357 load...
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Nothing "powder puff" or "cowboy" about that load. Good solid "all around" load.

.
 
While you're at it, shoot a string with the .357 SA with both the stock factory checkered grips, and then a set of smooth ones. :)

Great choice on that piece, btw. I love my 50th .357.

-Daizee
 
Bob Munden takes .02 seconds to draw and fire a SAA (and hit his target). However, that is using his off hand to cock the gun.

Say he's ten times slower when he has to shoot one-handed...

I still think he'd do fine.:D
 
Bob Munden takes .02 seconds to draw and fire a SAA (and hit his target). However, that is using his off hand to cock the gun.
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Looks like you got your decimal in the wrong place. It should be .20 or so. Which is still mighty fast !

Ernie Hill set a record of .208 for "Standing blanks, 4" balloon @ 8 feet." I think that might've been eclipsed by something in the high teens, but I didn't search long enough to find it.

Here's a link showing Ernie's time:

http://www.fastdraw.org/wfda/wfd_records.html
 
No.
S&W doesn't make any Single-Actions, and Jerry is sponsered by them.
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One of his world records is 8 shots in 1 second. He fired 8 rounds on to 4 targets in less than 1.1. Can any SA shooters shoot that fast?
 
Send Munden an 8-shot SA so we can compare!

but seriously, quibbling about literally milliseconds at the ragged edge of human performance capacity is a waste of time.

Do these comparisons even apply to us mortals and our carry options?
I can't move my finger as fast as Jerry, on my 5lb 1911 trigger or just in the plain air with no resistance. Given equal recoil, I'd expect to be able to work a short trigger faster than a long one. But then there's the hammer fanning... I dunno.

(for complete disclosure, I'll be clear that I don't have ANY carry options in my state :p )

-Daizee
 
This thread is beginning to sound more like a discussion of our favorite baseball players instead of a discussion on the viability of a single-action revolver for CCW.
 
This thread is beginning to sound more like a discussion of our favorite baseball players instead of a discussion on the viability of a single-action revolver for CCW
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I'd say that pretty much sums it up.

It's evolved...or maybe degraded would be a better description...into an argument based on what a handful of outstanding shooters can do. Men who do nothing but practice at shooting their chosen platforms as fast as they can...and basing our choices on what professional trick shooters can do.

It's rather like thinking that we can stick with a NASCAR driver like Earnhardt or Wallace at Talledega if we only had a car just like they have.
 
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