SAD News-Boy killed with NFA weapon-in Mass.

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I'd point out that the real problem wasn't the availability of the machine gun, but the poor choice of the parent or guardian to hand it to an 8 year old. Though horrible, this case isn't the first one where a negligent or foolish adult has inadvertently caused the death of a child (or himself). We've all heard about the 7 year old who accidentally shot his father, a police officer. I don't mean to downplay this event as commonplace, but people have been doing foolish things with firearms for a long time, and the fact that this time a machine gun was used is of little significance. It's a terribly sad reminder of why we must be extremely careful while shooting, as well as judicious about who we let shoot our firearms (for those of us who, like me, take friends with little experience to the range and instruct them on proper shooting etiquette).

Although the NFA aspect will grab headlines (scare factor +1), it's of no real significance to the sadness of this incident.
 
how do you take emotion from the pro-gun control side in general? Until you can do that, there's no point having a gun argument with any of them. as far as they're concerned, they're out to save the world by making us feel guilty. luckily, I don't.

The only real feelings I have are those of dumbfoundness. Who the hell gives a small, frail, muscularly undeveloped, 3.5-to-4-foot 70 pound eight-year old a gun that relies solely on control and support from just your hands, and can generate enough recoil to fly out of even a fully-grown adult male's hands? Someone's brain captain wasn't just drunk at the wheel, but also forgot to put the sails up.
 
Highorder:

Ask her if she supports banning swimming pools. Far more children drown every year than are killed by firearms.
 
Horrible. Absolutely horrible in every way.

The second worst part is indeed that antis will have a field day with this. The third worst part is that people will think that they have a point.

The anti that sensationalizes (and manipulates) this child's death should have more guilt than anyone but the person who failed to supervise this child.
 
Too bad the innocent boy had to pay for this idiocy. Would you let an 8 year old handle a chainsaw? Sure as heck not. The same goes for full autos with no stock.
 
My response to her argument would be as follows: if an adult let a kid ride a motorcycle, and he got himself killed, would you call for a ban on all motorcycles?
 
I see your point . . .

I cannot blame the guardian of the boy the kid didnt get there by itself, nor did it bring the gun lets get real. the " guardian" was suppose to do just that and failed miserably

True but,
The kid was at a MG shoot, what else would he want to do? You dont take your kid to Toys R Us and tell him he cant touch anything. Not saying toys are as safe as guns but the kid was probably begging to shoot one and the adult probably thought, oh that looks small enough (micro uzi) he should be able to shoot that. Also not saying we should listen to our kids every beg / plea but at no point did this adult think the outcome would result in death.

But that guardian is now blaming himself worse than you or I can even imagine and couldn't possibly make them feel worse. I would place blame on the person RUNNING that perticular booth.

Giving the guardian the benifit of the doubt thinking he did not fully understand what the recoil would be like shooting a micro uzi (not saying that wasn't a bonehead idea but) the operator of the booth should have known an 8 year old shouldnt be immedeatly trusted with a FA firearm and that it might be out of his control.

Very Horrible, every single gun owners must strive to prevent any more accidents like this from happening again.
 
NFA weapons are involved in a statistically negligible number of crimes and shooting accidents, plain and simple.

This tragedy isn't a "gun problem" and debating someone about this as a gun issue is a mistake from the outset.

I'm sure we can find an example of some child being killed by a WeedEater because of negligence. Is that a WeedEater problem?
 
Highorder:

Ask her if she supports banning swimming pools. Far more children drown every year than are killed by firearms.

Here is the answer to the questions relating to "bans" of other objects:

[she will say:]

Motorcycles have a legitimate purpose, transportation. Same for pools, they are kid friendly recreation.

Guns are designed to kill. Objects that are not designed to kill regrettably do, but rarely. Guns kill far more often. Look at hunting...


What about that?






We can continue this here, or if the Mods prefer, I can start a new thread where I "just don't get it" and you guys explain it to me...
 
Motorcycles have a legitimate purpose, transportation. Same for pools, they are kid friendly recreation.

Guns are designed to kill. Objects that are not designed to kill regrettably do, but rarely. Guns kill far more often. Look at hunting...

Knives were designed to kill, they also cut tomatoes. Does she want to outlaw knives if there is an accident?

Does she want police to relinquish their firearms? If not, why? Why is it OK for police to have firearms but not everyone else? At that point her argument that "guns are for killing" fails. If it's OK for police to have them to protect society she has lost by saying it's not OK for everyone else.

If she thinks that not even police should have them then you need to simply buy her some ice cream, wish her good luck in fantasy land, and walk away.
 
There is no legitimate need for a motorcycle in light of the availability of far-safer modes of transportation, be they private automobiles or public transit. Dream up a trip that couldn't be done on anything but a motorcycle.

Pools are no more a means to "kid-friendly recreation" than are firearms, and they have no necessity to them whatsoever.

As to firearms being designed to kill people, only certain ones even are, and most of those are now uderstood to be obsolete for that task. And what of axes? Their one legitimate purpose has been assumed by saws--their only purpose now is killing.

Intention is insubstantial, though; what matters is whether they are in fact more potent than anything else. After all, what's the point of banning firearms if something else can be used with equal or greater effectiveness and ease? There will be no reduction in the number of people killed if the alternative means of killing is employed, so the only accomplishments are moral and emotional, which are no accomplishments at all.
 
Her knives were designed to cut food.

The Micro Uzi was designed to kill at close range.


I am as frustrated as the rest of you; if this isn't a conversation worth having (with her) where does that leave our cause?
 
I am as frustrated as the rest of you; if this isn't a conversation worth having (with her) where does that leave our cause?

You are being led down the path is the problem. Uzis have been used in documented cases of legitimate self defense. Would she have humans unable to defend themselves? The Supreme Court has said it's not the job of police to protect us.

So, she either has to admit that humans have a right to use a tool to defend themselves or they don't. If she fundamentally does not believe humans have a right to self defense then she's psychologically damaged and not worth debating.

There is no machinegun debate here unless you allow one.
 
She believes in self defense, but would not support CCW of Micro-Uzis.

How do you discuss things with people that are half-reasonable?

And like I said, if you can't, have we no effective tools for situations/discussions like these?
 
Good hell, Darwin has been busy.

I know there are people that are going to say it is ok for an 8 YEAR OLD to be shooting fully automatic weapons, but I just don't see it.

I can understand using firearms at that age in an appropriate manner to practice, train, and develop excellent and safe shooting habits, but a full auto Uzi? Are you serious.

Tragedy for the family, and I wish a lesson could be learned, but when you look at our society and the world, there are plenty more idiots to go around. This will happen again, as it has happened before in the past.

Sad, tragic, and pathetic.
 
Just read about this on Fox news. Very tragic. What grabbed me was that the headline read "Boy, 8, shoots self with UZI at gun show." Now a lot of people just skim the headlines only. All imbedded now is UZI or Gun Show. The article later said gun fair. I take it this was a full auto shoot? It seems misleading to me. My deepest sympathies to those involved.
 
She believes in self defense, but would not support CCW of Micro-Uzis.

How do you discuss things with people that are half-reasonable?

She cannot support her position with logic. At that point it's not a "debate" any longer, it's "feelings" and you cannot change them easily.

It's not possible to argue from a position of logic that some guns are ok for self defense and some are not. Criminals are under no such restriction and there is no moral reason why the rest of us should be artificially limited in our choice of tools.

In fact, if Micro Uzis were commonly carried for self defense, and that was a well known fact, it's arguable that crime rates would go down therefore bettering society as a whole.

Legally owned NFA weapons have been involved in only one murder conviction here in the US. That one crime was committed by a police officer by the way.
 
Precisely. tell her that guns are also for recreation and sport as well, but just like swimming and driving, you have to adequately learn about how to do it safely. You can also tell her that guns serve a public need because the police are armed with all sorts of weaponry suited for dealing with criminals, and that barring such a public need from the law-abiding public itself is hypocritical elitism.
 
Couple points for the grabber lady...

First, I would drop the self-defense argument. Yes, guns were designed to kill. When our overlords start building the people ovens, what do we do? If we can't kill them, then we can't stop abuses of government. Sad, but true. I'll leave it to you to find abuses of government that are out of the "high taxes" league these days.

Second, nobody has brought up the obvious point that the guy running this fair, and in particular this weapon, needs to be charged with criminal negligence. We don't get any points from anybody by not throwing him under a bus. You put a micro uzi in the hands of an 8 year old and you're BEGGING for stray bullets at the very best.

Coming out in full support of PROSECUTING THE MAN would quell some arguments, or should.
 
Almost without exception every direct comment so far expresses to some degree what a poor idea this scenario was in the first place. Considering these other shooters and organizers at the event are probably like thinkers I'm wondering why the boy was allowed to shoot a full auto at all.
 
Letting the kid shoot a FA UZI may or may not have been a good idea

how could this be a good idea???????? explain that to everyone.

If the child had been fully supervised, as he should have been, and had it been determined that he could sufficiently hold the firearm with assistance from the range officer, then there is nothing wrong in allowing him to shoot this firearm; and it would have been good and fun shooting experience for the boy. What more of an explanation do you need than had it been done correctly it would have been good in that it would have been a firearms learning experience and would have been fun.

As it turned out, it was not a good experience, not because the child was allowed to shoot the firearm in question, but apparently because of absolutely poor supervision of him while doing so. The fact of the matter is that in all likelihood it would take several rounds from a full auto burst to have been fired before the gun could have risen up and turned on the shooter allowing for him to be injured. All an attentive firearms instructor or range officer would have had to have done would have been to grab hold of the weapon, or even simply push it down, as it rose up. The instructor should have been anticipating the need to have done so.

The range officer/instructor should have had all of his attention on this particular child, and the ratio of instructors to children shooters, in a situation like that, should have been 1 to 1. Any time there is a special set of circumstances the ratio of shooters to instructors should be adjusted. In my professional opinion, it should never be more than 5 or 6 shooters to 1 range officer/instructor; and for special shooting or training it should be reduced to 2 to 1 or 1 to 1 as needed. In a case like this - definitely 1 to 1.

Other considerations should have been thought of beforehand. For example the child should have been allowed to fire the same firearm or same type of firearm in single shot mode to see how well he did, and to give him an idea of the recoil for just a single shot. An explanation of how the weapon would recoil should also have been given to the boy, and he should have been instructed as to what he would need to have done to compensate for it.

While it is possible these things were done, I find it hard to believe that the instructor was being as attentive to this child as he should have been, but that is my personal opinion based upon the little I read in the story. I would like to see all of the facts about the shooting, but my bet is they will be a long time coming.

If I remember right, someone above in essence questioned us discussing this issue or pointing blame at those involved (I think venting anger was the term used). While it may not be wise to vent anger in a discussion like this, there can be a lot of good that comes about because of a discussion about such an incident.
One of the reasons it is good to discuss things like this is because we can learn from others regarding how to teach and supervise children when they are handling firearms.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
huh?

It seems to me we are missing a main point, which is, the idiot who let his kid shoot this illegal weapon is able, with few serious questions asked, to buy a gun. There will always be idiots. There will continue to be kids killed until gun owners get serious about who gets to buy guns, until there are real backround checks at gun shows and elswhere, until gun owners own up to the fact that we have idiots, careless people, and the mentally ill buying weapons and having kids. In any seriously sane world, that dad would never be able to buy a gun again. People who shoot other people...even if they happen to be vice presidents...should never be able to own a gun again.
We are all interested in responsible gun ownership, not willy-nilly sloppy gun ownership. We are all interested in gun safety, unless we're too brainless to know of the subject, which unfortunately many many gun owners are. Making Uzis available to gun owners makes Uzis available to idiots, as things are.
Here's a suggestion: maybe we should arrange to exercise a little more caution in who gets to buy (or heck, even have) guns. I don't think guns should be for everybody. Some demonstration of sanity, intelligence, and judgment might be good.
Kwahe
 
I don't think guns should be for everybody. Some demonstration of sanity, intelligence, and judgment might be good.

I think we should do the same for the ability to vote and post on the Internet.
 
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