safe shotgun

[Virginian]

Let us please not lapse into another interminable discussion over the preferred way to store a defense weapon. It should be abundantly clear by now that everyone has their own opinion and they really couldn't care less for other's opinions. The question referred to the efficacy of the safeties on today's firearms.

 

[d2wing]

I would not depend on it. I had a Mossberg that the safety would work loose on. My son dropped it hunting and it went off. Another time I was closing the action on a pump gun and it discharged for no good reason. Opening the action cocked it and I jarred the trigger or hammer loose when I slammed it shut.

 

[200Apples]

.

Virginian

Let us please not lapse into another interminable discussion over the preferred way to store a defense weapon

Allow me to apologize in advance.

Apples

If it's in the safe most of the time, you could leave the chamber empty, action open and have a shotshell on a shelf ready to throw into the ejection port before you quickly close the action. Bingo: 6 +1.

And consider that from time to time it's better for the magazine spring if it's exercised. In other words, don't leave the magazine permanently stuffed; occasionally remove then replace shotshells.

Best way to do that, though, and practice your gun handling is to use dummy rounds/snap caps/expired shotshells...

coyote

Okay, I need to be educated on this issue and have a couple of questions. I'm not familiar with the Remington 887. But if it is stored with the action open and the magazine charged, would you not experience a double feed/jam (Bingo!) if you manually inserted a round in the chamber and then closed the slide which would feed a round from the magazine? Not trying to be a smart guy, I don't know.

I'm unfamiliar with the 887 too. I am familiar with the 870, and in that pump shotgun a shotshell is released from the magazine at the end of the pump's rearward travel. When the action is completely open, and empty, tossing a shotshell in through the ejection port and then closing the action by moving the fore end forward simply chambers the single shotshell.

coyote

Also, as far as I know springs don't need to be "exercised." I believe we have established in multiple handgun threads that springs wear out when "exercised," not when stored compressed.

When I say excercised, my good man, I don't mean "worn out". Hee. We're not talking about the coaxial recoil springs on 3" 1911s that need to be swapped out every 500 cycles of the slide...

Shotgun magazine springs are shaped differently than handgun magazine springs. I too have heard tales of, say, vintage 1911 magazines found full in a pistol that had sat untouched for decades and the magazine functioned normally.

On the other hand, those pros who build combat shotguns will suggest we not leave the magazine spring compressed for long-term storage... makes sense to occasionally empty the magazine, allowing the spring to expand.

coyote

Just by the way, what's an "expired" shotshell? Fired shotshells will not function in my pump action shotguns unless I recrimp to proper length (empty of shot and powder of course).

Ok, that was a reach on my part.

 

[rcmodel]

So, you suggest jacking your car up on blocks every so often to let the springs 'expand'??
So the ride height will return to normal??

You can't 'rest' a spring.

Once it takes a set, it is shorter, with less power
And relaxing it and letting it rest will do absolutely nothing to restore it to it's former power & length.

If it's collapsed, replace it.

If it isn't, Fogadaboutit!!

rc

 

[Tony617]

I under load my shotguns by one shot shell round and I haven't had to replace the magazine springs yet. I did buy some replacement magazine springs just in case but so far they cycle the shot shells fine.

 

[200Apples]

So the ride height will return to normal??

No, and that's a poor analogy. Good-quality automotive coil springs don't "sag".

 

[jaguarxk120]

Automotive springs do take a "set", that is they will have a new length after they have been in service.

Good engineering takes this "set" in to account and springs are made so the ride height is right for the car in question.

 

[oneounceload]

On the other hand, those pros who build combat shotguns will suggest we not leave the magazine spring compressed for long-term storage... makes sense to occasionally empty the magazine, allowing the spring to expand.

No, it does not make sense. Springs deteriorate from "work", not from just being compressed

 

[danez71]

Springs degrade from being worked.

Springs also degrade from being compresses too far into their elastic range.

Car suspensions have bump stops so that the suspension doesn't compress too far. The bump stops are often several inches tall to limit the suspension. Coil springs in cars are often 18" to 2' long but the suspension travel is only around 6".

A common comparison is car engine valve springs. They literally last millions of cycles. They also don't get compressed more than about 25% of their length.

A well engineered spring can last millions of cycles if it isn't squished too far.


1911 left fully load for decades is the result of a well engineered spring with a generous safety margin of not being compressed too far. BHP and M9 are the same way.

A new sub compact with high capacity mag wont last that long fully loaded because they have sacrificed spring longevity for added capacity in a shorter grip

For ex: A single stack 9mm holding 7-8 rounds is the same linear space as a 13-15 round BHP, M9, or comparable Glock..... but its mag can be 1" shorter and thereby compressing the spring far deeper into its elastic range

The military doesn't want to dedicate unnecessary logistics and related labor to replace mag springs in combat. The commercial market considers them consumable.


Again, if the cycles was the sole factor (beside material quality) we'd see at least 10x the number of threads about changing recoil spring instead of mag spring. And look at the threads about changing mag spring, they tend to be compact/sub compact guns.


Ive provided tons of engineering data on this subject here at THR and TFL and have gone around with engineers from different industries on this topic and everyone one of them has conceded.


I didn't mean to derail this thread but the myth that springs only wear from cycles needs to stop. There are other factors besides materials quality and # of cycles.

 

[Scooter22]

Hmmm. A shotgun tube spring gets compressed what? 60-80% of it's length.

 

[oneounceload]

And works for a long time. But, if worked repeatedly, as in thousands of rounds a year, it will need replacing every so often. I replaced a mag tube and a recoil spring in a Beretta A400 after 15000 rounds in a short time period. The new recoil spring was 4 full coils longer than the one I replaced.

 

[200Apples]

Hmmm. A shotgun tube spring gets compressed what? 60-80% of it's length.

That depends. I've a Wilson Combat 1-shot extension on one of my Wingmasters. Once five shotshells have been inserted, there is literally 1/8" - 3/16" empty space remaining.

On an 1100, a Remington is2-shot extension where when 6 shotshells are inserted, there's the typical half-shotshell-length headroom left over. Same with a standard, 4-shot tube on an 870.

It would seem, then, that at least one of these springs are compressed to more than 90% of it's length.


Hey, Virginian, how do you like this thread, now? Holy Toledo Ohio. I guess, though, that since the thread title is "safe shotgun", that could imply either "which model or which loaded condition is a 'safe' shotgun?" or "which shotgun for the safe?", in which the subject of magazine spring compressed storage is pertinent. Yeah, that's the ticket! Hahrr...

 

[danez71]

And works for a long time. But, if worked repeatedly, as in thousands of rounds a year, it will need replacing every so often. I replaced a mag tube and a recoil spring in a Beretta A400 after 15000 rounds in a short time period. The new recoil spring was 4 full coils longer than the one I replaced.

If I'm reading this right.... I would generally agree with this statement.

From the data Ive seen,,,, very generally speaking, the data supports that the number of times the spring is cycled 'too far' into its elastic range has more of a negative affect than the time is spends 'too far' in its elastic range.


People have to understand that this isn't a 'go/no go' situation in real applications.

Lets say, hypothetically, a spring needs to return to 95% of its original length and force after a cycle to properly operate for the next cycle.

A spring may last millions of cycles if compressed only 25%. That same spring may only last 10k cycles if compressed 50% and only 1000 cycles if compressed 75% and only 5 cycles if compressed 90% and Zero cycles if compressed 100%.


Also, the distance amount too far into its elastic range has more negative affect than time amount.

Using the same hypothetical of needing to return to 95% of its original length and force after a cycle to properly operate for the next cycle,,,,

A spring compressed 75% for a year may still be ok for 1000 more cycles where-as the same spring compressed 95% for an hour may only be good for another 100 cycles and may (probably) not be ok for any more cycles if compressed 100% for 1 minute.


Again, I'm sorry if I caused the thread drift. That wasn't my intention.


Anyways.... back on what I think the topic was really.....


Am I reading the thread right in that the typical shotgun, say a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 or typical SxS, don't have a firing pin block to prevent an AD if dropped?

And a related side question of: Is that a reason people say don't store a shotgun with a round in the chamber?

 

[oneounceload]

Am I reading the thread right in that the typical shotgun, say a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 or typical SxS, don't have a firing pin block to prevent an AD if dropped?

And a related side question of: Is that a reason people say don't store a shotgun with a round in the chamber?

IMO, yes it is

 

[danez71]

IMO, yes it is

Thanks. I value your opinion.

 

[Bo]

Thanks for all your comments. (not really sure what spring tension had to do with the original question)
Just installed a sidesaddle on my 887 so, I've got 6 in the magazine and 6 in the sidesaddle, think I'll keep the chamber empty until needed. That way I don't have to answer my question.

 

[200Apples]

(not really sure what spring tension had to do with the original question)

The point was, regardless of what's in the chamber, some folks are of the opinion that if you were to leave your shotgun's magazine stuffed full, ready to go in a safe for 20 years then needed to burn through all six rounds in a hurry, there's the potential that the spring might not return to it's former glory, resulting in a misfeed. I've heard this from shotgun builder J.D. Maguire of AI&P Tactical as well as from a buddy at work who saw active duty in the Marine Corp.

Is that a trivial matter? That is for you to decide. We were only wishing to comment in the positive, in the spirit of helpfulness, by contributing this seemingly unimportant minutiae regarding magazine springs. Comparing a shotgun magazine spring to an automotive suspension coil spring, on the other hand, is like comparing a toothpick to a telephone pole. Sure, they're both made of wood...

 

[200Apples]

.
And my apologies to all concerned, here. Between my personality, my strange sense of humor and in my novice enthusiasm for firearms also as machinery, I suppose my delivery is annoying, stiff, and awkward. It is never my intention and I seem to have alienated some here whom I had hoped might be more friendly.

 

[Drail]

Personally I have no problem at all with your delivery - and this is America - Land of the Offended........... As far as shotgun magazine springs go - I have spoken to numerous LEO armorers and they all agreed that when a fully loaded shotgun rides in a patrol car for a long time and is never cycled - the magazine springs will fail when that shotgun is pulled to go to the range for yearly quals. That's been my experience also. The oft quoted car spring analogy doesn't work for me as those springs are never going to be fully compressed or overcompressed beyond their elastic limits unless you drop your car from a pretty good height. They are simply much stronger than they need to be for the application. On my house shotguns (all pumps) I have always downloaded the magazine by one round and I keep the gun stored with the bolt open about halfway - this places the bolt over the hammer and makes it impossible for the gun to fire and also makes it very easy to see that a round is in position to be chambered. It's also very quiet to bring the gun into action as opposed to racking the pump. If I have to grab one all I need to do is close the bolt and not fumble looking for the safety. I should probably mention that there are NEVER any children in my house (unless they broke in).

 

[oneounceload]

I have no kids at home anymore as well, but I prefer that "cruiser ready" method of hammer down on an empty chamber. I have never used a safety on any shotgun, whether for HD, hunting or targets - I'm either on point and ready to shoot, or my action is open - but that is just me

 

[Scooter22]

I have no kids at home anymore as well, but I prefer that "cruiser ready" method of hammer down on an empty chamber. I have never used a safety on any shotgun, whether for HD, hunting or targets - I'm either on point and ready to shoot, or my action is open - but that is just me

This thread is getting confusing. Many have posted " Anything mechanical can fail". I agree. But some "mechanical" safetys like the transfer bar style make it almost impossible for the gun to fire unless the trigger is pulled. So you
never use a safety. What about when you cycle the gun, all components are moving and the sear jumps dropping the hammer when the bolt closes on a live round.? I've seen this happen. Maybe they had wear or poorly maintained. Or tripping, snagging a gun while hunting? Wouldn't having the the safety, be safer??? I've read don't trust a mechanicle safety. Now I read don't use one? I know the safest gun is pointed in a safe direction. But plenty aren't. Thats why guns have safeties as a backup.

 

[Hookeye]

Transfer bars may stop a hammer blow.
But what about a floating firing pin not going to its most rearward position?
Had a cop blow me crap about my 629 being loaded laying on the seat
(told him before he came to vehicle).
Said it was unsafe to have it like that.
Explained firing pin on hammer, and hammer block and he got snippy and said "you must think you're one of those mechanical engineers".
I smiled really big and said "well...........according to that degree thing, yeah kinda".
Still only got a speeding warning.

 

[oneounceload]

What about when you cycle the gun, all components are moving and the sear jumps dropping the hammer when the bolt closes on a live round.?

I am either ready to shoot or I am not - if targets, gun is unloaded until I am in the box; if hunting, if it is my turn on point, the gun is loaded, safety off, watching the dog; if someone else's turn, the gun is unloaded. For me hunting isn't about the killing, so when we have a group of three or so, only one at a time has a loaded gun, the rest are watching to see where the birds went down of flew off to.

In ALL scenarios, the gun is either pointed in a safe direction or unloaded. Even my field shotguns have manual safeties, not automatic. The only time I have ever used a safety on a semi is when I remove the trigger group for cleaning.
YMMV.

 

[RMc]

I would not depend on it. I had a Mossberg that the safety would work loose on. My son dropped it hunting and it went off. Another time I was closing the action on a pump gun and it discharged for no good reason. Opening the action cocked it and I jarred the trigger or hammer loose when I slammed it shut.

That is highly unusual. The Mossberg 500 and all its variations have a hammer stop just for that reason. You can check this by starting hammer down, (empty chamber), and just barely opening the action - then close the bolt and pull the trigger. The hammer will then fall a short distance from the safety stop position.