Saiga 12 and 3 gun?

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J

Jayman

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Well, this question's predominantly for Correia, but anyone else with Saiga experience, I'd love to hear about it....

I just got a Saiga 12. (19" barrel, threaded for chokes, bolt hold open) I had intended to use it in the Tactical Shotgun Match this past weekend at Norfolk County Rifle Range. I only had five 5 round magazines with me though, and the first stage alone was 39 rounds. (So that let that out.) Unhappy, I fell back to the pump gun, but it brought up several questions and thoughts...

1. Seems the Saiga is officially an "open class gun" with no modifications. It seems to me that if I'm going to have to compete in that class, I really ought to hang some optics on it and maybe a compensator/porting at least. Maybe even more competition specific mods as they occur to me.

2. Magazine capacity. Obviously five rounds/magazine gets used up WAY too quickly. With the AWB sunsetting, I'm hoping that higher capacity magazines start becoming available. If not, perhaps I should look into fabbing my own. Once Sept 14 hits, provided new legislation happens, am I looking at any other legal gotchas by putting together feeding devices for the shotgun in excess of 5 rounds?

3. Reloads in general. Can you reload a fresh mag faster than you can stuff five shells into a different semi, like a Comp Master? I haven't played with it much, I did manage to get things moving along pretty quickly just in the first night I had the shotgun. (But understand, I am notoriously slow with a tube fed shotgun.)

Any other thoughts?
 
Like I've said, they do have their plusses and their minuses. You are going to need more magazines. :)

1. Most clubs are going to consider the magazine to be equivelent to a speed loader. This will put you in Open class. I have been shooting a pistol and a rifle that are Limited, but my shotgun puts me into Open. That is a choice you have to make. (I won Open class last time with my iron sighted rifle and pistol though, which is cool).

2. When the ban goes away, I would imagine that high capacity magazines will become more common. The real mags are 8 rounders. Which is a lot nicer. There may still be a legal catch because of the imported high capacity nonsense, I'm not sure on that. Solution? Replace the sporter stock with a US made pistol grip. That means you need to move the trigger & grip forward like it should be. Use US parts. Get above a certain number of parts and it is no longer an imported gun. I believe that would cover every possible legal problem.

3. If you single load a Comp master, then the Saiga will reload faster, even with 5 rounders. If you do the 3 or 4 shell in your hand speed load trick on a tube fed, then you will actually be faster with the Remington. If you have the 8 round mags for the Saiga, there is no contest, then the Saiga is about twice as fast.

My method. I use the mag as a vertical foregrip, so my hand is already right there. Click empty. Support hand hits mag release, and then sweeps over top of gun, gun tilted inwards to put charging handle point up. Lock bolt back, (trigger finger pushing in BHO button). Left hand sweeps down to belt, grabs mag. Rock & lock in, sweep hand over top and whack charging handle. Grab mag. Shoot gun. It is kind of weird, but you can reload in 2 seconds with practice.

Now the other thing that will bite you is the select slug. There is not really a good way to select slug with a Saiga unless you load a slug mag.
 
Thanks for the tips, and yeah, I KNOW I need more magazines.

I was considering the whole "US Parts" angle and it sounds like a royal pain. Probably a worthwhile one though. Is there a tutorial on how to move the trigger forward?

I'm not so much worried about winning open class or any class, I just wanted to have fun. When I found out that the Saiga put me in open, I figured I might as well put some other doodads on it, since I'm already there.

I was trying to figure out a good way to select slug, and I am at a loss there too. :(
 
You could mount an optic. I have a friend that is putting a Cobra on his side rail. I don't know how I feel about that. My target acquisition with a shotgun is pretty good, and at the ranges we use shot, I don't think a reddot would really help me. But that is just a personal call. I will try my friend's out though and see if it makes me go faster.

The sight rail on the Saiga is high, so it takes a little practice to get good slug hits. I would think that is where a dot would really help.

For select slug I just keep a mag of slugs handy. If it is a single slug, I have removed the mag, locked the bolt back, dropped in a single slug and dropped the bolt. (I don't think it will harm the monster extractor on the Saiga).

What would be really sweet would be an automatic bolt hold open, or a way to shove mags in with the bolt down. Some sort of button to cut off the mag and allow single slug loading would be great.

As for moving the trigger forward, there are directions out there for Saiga rifles. I haven't done it, but I have a Class III dealer friend who has modified some for LEO use. He says it is pretty easy.
 
Hold your breath, this is long.


I missed the NCCR match as I had some family things to do. Saiga shooter from Richmond took HOA honors! :)

Putting the Saiga in open class is a new thing here in VA. IPSC did it first, but the NCCR crowd is more aligned with IDPA. Nice thing is it will allow use of optics if you go that route. BTW, I've heard some side mounts (CDNN's?) mount so far from the angle you need that some sights won't adjust to point of aim. So do your homework (I haven't bought one ... yet).

I'm toying around with practicing the following. Pull a partial mag, stuffing needed shells in (IE a slugs or topping off) and then reinserting it. Haven't timed it, I'm sure it's slow, but it might be a decent skill. 2 cases come to mind.

Select a slug:

This would only require a single mag change, rather than shoot, load a slug mag, shoot a slug, then load a bird/buck mag back.


Topping off:
At a Richmond match a month or so back we had the following "anti Saiga" stage.

Start with gun loaded to 5. Shoot one, load one, shoot 2, load 2, Shoot 3, load 3, shoot 4. Ideal for belly mags. Really messed up a saiga if you:

Load mag of 5, shoot 1
load mag of 1 (now 2 in gun) shoot 2
load mag of 2 (now 2 in gun) shoot 3??? have to load an extra mag
load mag of 3 in gun 3 or 4 in gun depending on how many you had in your extra mag from before. If 3, then you have another extra mag change.

The stage was designed as Anti Saiga (there was no open class, that started last month for Richmond, this month for NCCR). Rational was to shoot a BG, top off, Shoot 2, top off, etc. Our Saiga Crowd fought thru it, one even placed third for the whole match.

If you practice and stuff shells back in mag in a "top off" stage, then you could have
Load 5 shoot one, put extra shell in mag, shoot 2, put 2 extra shells in mag, etc.

Seems the Saiga is officially an "open class gun" with no modifications
Click to expand...
Not officially, but I'm seeing us lumped in there more and more. Ron, who also shot at NCCR asked that our separate class be named "modern" :p If we aren't put in open class (and maybe even if we are) stage designers do a lot of things to make life hard. IE, a 9 round stage (assumes no saiga hi caps) allows some comp guns not to do a reload. Another stage specified you could never have more than 2 shells in the gun. ETC, ETC, ETC. Also, if there is movement between shooting, a practiced shotgunner can reload on the move, and reduce or negate the Saiga advantage.

perhaps I should look into fabbing my own
Click to expand...

PLEASE DO, and start your own company!!! we need a US manufacturer as this would replace 3 foriegn parts with domestic, and greatly reduce the number of other parts needed for saiga alterations.


Can you reload a fresh mag faster than you can stuff five shells into a different semi, like a Comp Master?
Click to expand...

You MUST watch Joe Fallis. I think he took second, ahead of 2 other Saiga's (one which had his front sight pop loose). He is the fastest on the reload locally. Amazing to watch. He shoots some version of the 1100/87.

That means you need to move the trigger & grip forward like it should be. Use US parts. Get above a certain number of parts and it is no longer an imported gun. I believe that would cover every possible legal problem.
Click to expand...

Another option (IMO) would be to bite the bullet, err slug, and manufacture a short barrelled shotgun or SBS. The 200 dollars for the tax stamp still leaves you with a bargain for a comp gun. Cut the BBL down to 14 inches (they are/can be very reliable at that length). Then you can pistol grip it and put a folder stock on and whatever else. Given the car stage that NCCR put out, and their plan to use it more I'd think a short BBL would pay off in more ways than one.

Is there a tutorial on how to move the trigger forward?
Click to expand...

Here is a site that covers rifle conversions. I haven't tried this, but looks like most of it would pertain to shotguns too.
http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion

Have you joined us over at
http://forum.saiga-12.com ?

My method. I use the mag as a vertical foregrip, so my hand is already right there. Click empty. Support hand hits mag release, and then sweeps over top of gun, gun tilted inwards to put charging handle point up. Lock bolt back, (trigger finger pushing in BHO button). Left hand sweeps down to belt, grabs mag. Rock & lock in, sweep hand over top and whack charging handle. Grab mag. Shoot gun. It is kind of weird, but you can reload in 2 seconds with practice
Click to expand...

I do many things exactly the same. I use the mag too, and I keep my weak hand thumb on the release. I COUNT the rounds (sometimes out loud). I do this because to me it's a game, not a practice for the "real world". I don't shoot the gun dry. When one is left, I squeeze mag release, drop mag, hold gun against me with weak hand, flip about 90 degrees and load strong hand. I used to try weak handed, but I bobbled A TON of reloads and gave up. You can load a full mag in if you practice, and after the mag loosens up just a touch.

I don't think I'm to a 2 sec reload. The drill I have for myself involves 5 mags. one in gun, 4 on belt/holders. With the timer set with a par time of 20 seconds, I ...

start at low ready.
beep
sholder, airgun out the mag,
reload and repeat for rest of mags. My goal is to airgun out the 5th mag before the beep.

I'll have to time a mag change next time I do live fire drills.

Sorry so long. Can you tell you hit my current passion :O

Good luck, and welcome to the "Modern Class"
 
Whew....

I ghost on the saiga forum, I don't post. I'm still trying to soak up all of the information there...

The last 3-gun at Rivanna I remember them putting together a "Saiga Unfriendly" shotgun stage as well. Bunch of cranky mofos out there that don't like the Saiga, apparently. I can't see what's not to like, it's cheap and stone reliable. They're just cranky 'cos they spent $1000 bux on a shotgun. I shot that one with my Mossy too.

I just ordered an optics mount from Tantal. Low mount, $29.95. We'll find out if it'll adjust in or not. Now I'm trying to decide what sort of optic to hang on it. I'm torn between the cheap route (Okko?) or the one I usually take (EOTECH).

The topping off magazines doesn't sound like a bad idea. I was toying with the idea of taking out the magazine and dropping rounds in the tube one at a time for select slug. I'm fairly certain it won't hurt anything. (Maybe I should chuck the gun in a mud puddle a few times while I'm at it.) I'll play with it a bit.

I'm slow with a shotgun as compared to pistol/rifle, so it isn't like I'm going to be fighting for top honors anytime soon. I'm just trying to have fun. When it seemed like everyone in VA was going to rain on my Saiga parade, that's when I got irritated and decided to make my gun a lot more "open class" like. For anyone else, optics probably wouldn't help, but I know it will for me.

One more thing, if I heavily modify the existing parts, do they still count as Russian parts? IOW if I cut down the stock and screw with the profile, is it a "Custom US" part, or is it still a "Russian part?"
 
I don't think so. I believe it needs to be manufactured here, not just modified.

However how on earth do they check that? What a stupid rule. Unless a metal part has the country of origin stamped on it, how are they supposed to tell where it came from. What a stupid rule.
 
Gah, I know, but if we wanted to make a list of all the moronic gun laws passed, we'd have a thread that would run pages and still not be complete. :(
 
The Russians use 8 round box magazines. You can actually force a 9th round into them. My understanding is that in magazines of greater capacity the bottom rounds get squished under recoil and don't feed.
 
1. Most clubs are going to consider the magazine to be equivelent to a speed loader. This will put you in Open class. I have been shooting a pistol and a rifle that are Limited, but my shotgun puts me into Open. That is a choice you have to make. (I won Open class last time with my iron sighted rifle and pistol though, which is cool).
Click to expand...

But then got spanked by a limited class shooter with iron sight rifle, pistol and bead sighted 1100 $350.00 shotgun by more than 20sec...which is not so cool.

:evil:
 
Then you don't know him very well.

He's a fierce competitor and can always be counted to give every match 100%!

Just sometime there a guy who gives 110%.
 
Jack is right. I came in 2nd place, by 20 whole seconds. That is what you call a serious butt kicking. A Limited shooter mud stomped all of us, once again proving that it is the man and not the gear. :)

See you Saturday at the annual night shoot Jack. I've got a title to defend. :p
 
It's on Wookie!

Ohh and which division are ya shooting? Light mount or handheld?

Because:

once again proving that it is the man and not the gear.
Click to expand...

And the Saiga is a great shotgun...I'm going to get one for my boat when I can get a pistol grip and folding stock.

I've shot it and it is reliable and very robust.
 
On like Donkey Kong baby. :D

Handheld. I'm going to use the same 6Z I usually have in my pocket. I don't even own a pistol with a light rail. I need to remedy that. What are you going to use?

I talked to John the other night, he bought an M3 for his Glock.
 
I tried mounting a mag light on my Springfield, but the moving slide kept cutting the duct tape.


:)
 
Tape it to the grip next time...used the original "silver" duct tape...not the tactical black tape.
 
Jayman wrote:
The last 3-gun at Rivanna I remember them putting together a "Saiga Unfriendly" shotgun stage as well. Bunch of cranky mofos out there that don't like the Saiga, apparently. I can't see what's not to like, it's cheap and stone reliable. They're just cranky 'cos they spent $1000 bux on a shotgun. I shot that one with my Mossy too.
Click to expand...

Yea, but I'm not sure I blame them too much. I rubbed a little salt in "stresspuppy's" wounds. He shot the last couple matches with a brand new benelli. I tried to steer him towards the Saiga when he was deciding a few months back.

Nothing new for Rivanna. I believe MD is a staunch believer in select shell loading (he's been including them for years).

Correia wrote:
The Russians use 8 round box magazines. You can actually force a 9th round into them. My understanding is that in magazines of greater capacity the bottom rounds get squished under recoil and don't feed.
Click to expand...
I've wondered about that. My guess was that at some point the mag gets too long and unmanagable. The 20ga full cap's hold 10. Hmmm, but so do the .410?

Well, when Jayman sets up his factory, we'll have to test this for him. I'm assuming you are available ...... :)

So, ya'll Utahn's separate night shooters into handheld vs weapons mounted lights? Not many here that shoot weapons mounted. I tried handheld at my last lowlight, but I fumbled everything. I'd need a lot more practice to make that good. Think I'll go back to the weapons mount.

I do like something I saw one guy try a few lowlights back. Started with a mondo maglight in weakhand. You know, the one that doubles as a club. At the buzzer he turned it on AND DROPPED IT facing the threats. He did pretty good with it, so I guess enough light splashed up on the targets. Doesn't take much when you are shooting paper. Better test if they mixed in no-shoots randomly.

edited to finish one of my thoughts:fire:
 
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