Same gun, different calibers, different price

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NG VI

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Found out tonight that my buddy's PM40 cost more than a PM9 at the same shop. He didn't see anything wrong with it at all, actually he thought that's exactly the way it should be, even though they are exactly the same gun.

I've run into this attitude towards calibers in a few other friends too, and even though it should be a pretty easy misconception to put to rest, for some reason the explanation that the 9mm, .40, and .357 versions of almost every gun are exactly the same, generally they always use the same recoil assembly, same frames, slides, everything. Maybe the exact size of the opening in the muzzle end of the slide is a little bigger in the .40s, the extractors a little different, but it doesn't cost any more to make than the same gun in 9mm.

I mean the two guys I was hanging out with earlier, and at least one other notable friend, think that a gun's price should be based entirely on it's caliber. It's ridiculous.

Anybody got any similiar experiences or have any methods for getting rid of these ideas?
 
It might be a matter of popularity. If the guy sells 10 PM9s every month, but only 1 PM40, then he might feel inclined to charge more for the PM40. Or even stop stocking it, altogether. Maybe he even gets a better price on the PM9, particularly if he buys more of them.

Same thing goes for the factory. It might cost the same to make, but it costs time and money to switch models. That's why Glock doesn't make the G17L all the time. They tool up for it every 4 years or so, run a batch, then go back to their bread and butter. If it cost them nothing, they'd just make one or two whenever there was a demand. There isn't a factory making a PM40 whenever someone wants to buy one, then sitting idle the rest of the time.
 
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There might be differences in the barrel as well. A .40SW barrel is going to be taking a lot more pressure than a 9mm. That alone could cause lots of engineering headaches.
 
Many .40 guns, including the PM40, are slightly heavier and built slightly stronger than their 9mm counterparts. It's common for the .40's slide to be heavier to help tame the greater energy of the .40 round, the barrel and frame may be beefed up a little bit as well. This translates to more materials being used to make the gun. Also, as GLOOB said, I'm sure the PM40 doesn't sell nearly as well as the PM9, which means that Kahr doesn't produce as many, and the shop owner may charge more for it since it will probably sit in his case longer.
 
Spazed the pressure is the same for 9mm and .40, actually the +P 9mm is a few thousand PSI higher pressured than the .40. It generates more momentum, sure, but the barrels don't have to be manufactured to any higher or lower a standard than a corresponding 9mm barrel. None of the new .40s I have owned have taken any more of a beating than the new 9mms I've owned.

It generates more recoil forces, sure, but that's the magic of modern engineering and metalurgy- guns don't have to have major size differences between similiar, slightly more or less powerful chamberings anymore. I know some guns, like the CZ 75 and High-Power, have a different, heavier slide profile for the .40, but those were guns invented when there was no .40. Not the case with the Kahrs, the USPs, the XDs, the M&Ps, even Glock only really needed to add a third pin to the frame and voila! Their 9mms make great .40s.

I can see a few dollars difference in pricing for a gun that is legitmately more expensive to manufacture, I understand batch manufacturing (I did order an OD Glock 23 straight from the factory after all), but in this case the .40 isn't some rare oddball variant like a 17L, it's the other caliber offered in the flagship carry gun by a company whose niche is pure carry guns, oh and it's also either the first or second most popular auto carry caliber. I'm betting it's 9mm #1, .40 #2, and lately who knows maybe .380 has gotten ahead of .45. Seems that way seeing all the advertising for it.


I mean in most cases a gun in .40 costs the exact same amount coming out of the factory as the corresponding model in 9mm. And if the guy is running through PM9s at three, five, ten times the rate of PM40s, the 9mms are going to get a premium, not a price drop. If a gun sits in a case for months, yo don't jack the price up out of spite for it taking up room so long, you either leave it alone or reduce it a bit if you're getting squeamish about it.
 
Carrying it a step further.
Why does a pretty good .308 bolt-action sell for $1,000 dollars.
And a .50 cal BMG bolt-action sell for $5,000?

Sure it takes a lot more steel to make the .50 cal rifle, but not five times more!

The answer is, they probably sell 10,000 .308's for every one .50 cal.

rc
 
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There is often a "flavor of the month" with guns.

If .40 is selling better than the shop can charge higher prices for the .40.

My shops explaination: "We sell them for what the market will bear. If you don't like that price, then don't buy it. Next time your in here, if it's still here it WILL be cheaper. But that's todays price."

Guns that don't collect dust are priced alot highter than nearly the exact same model thats flying off the shelfs.
 
NG VI said:
Spazed the pressure is the same for 9mm and .40, actually the +P 9mm is a few thousand PSI higher pressured than the .40. It generates more momentum, sure, but the barrels don't have to be manufactured to any higher or lower a standard than a corresponding 9mm barrel. None of the new .40s I have owned have taken any more of a beating than the new 9mms I've owned.

It generates more recoil forces, sure, but that's the magic of modern engineering and metalurgy- guns don't have to have major size differences between similiar, slightly more or less powerful chamberings anymore. I know some guns, like the CZ 75 and High-Power, have a different, heavier slide profile for the .40, but those were guns invented when there was no .40. Not the case with the Kahrs, the USPs, the XDs, the M&Ps, even Glock only really needed to add a third pin to the frame and voila! Their 9mms make great .40s.

I can see a few dollars difference in pricing for a gun that is legitmately more expensive to manufacture, I understand batch manufacturing (I did order an OD Glock 23 straight from the factory after all), but in this case the .40 isn't some rare oddball variant like a 17L, it's the other caliber offered in the flagship carry gun by a company whose niche is pure carry guns, oh and it's also either the first or second most popular auto carry caliber. I'm betting it's 9mm #1, .40 #2, and lately who knows maybe .380 has gotten ahead of .45. Seems that way seeing all the advertising for it.


I mean in most cases a gun in .40 costs the exact same amount coming out of the factory as the corresponding model in 9mm. And if the guy is running through PM9s at three, five, ten times the rate of PM40s, the 9mms are going to get a premium, not a price drop. If a gun sits in a case for months, yo don't jack the price up out of spite for it taking up room so long, you either leave it alone or reduce it a bit if you're getting squeamish about it.
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There are modern designs that have a heavier slide for the .40 version than the 9mm, the Walther P99 comes to mind for one. If the PM9 and PM40 are the exact same gun with a different barrel, then why does Kahr list the PM40 as being almost 2oz heavier than the PM9? That extra weight has to be coming from somewhere, and more materials means increased production cost. While .40 is popular in larger handguns, I doubt it's very popular in a pocket gun like the PM, most people are going to buy a 9mm or .380 for a pocket gun for the reduced recoil and larger capacity. Some stores may charge more for popular guns, but if the PM9 is more popular they may buy say 10 and get a better price, allowing them to sell it for a cheaper price, and they may charge more for the .40 for going to the trouble of even carrying it when it's not going to sell as well.
 
Check msrp/ factory list price. If it's the same for a 9mm./.40 then the dealer and or wholesaler are playing a pricing game. If thats true then one should walk out of said store or shop and never return.

I buy guns just like I buy cars and other items. You take what I offer or I go else where with a smile.
 
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM40.asp

MSRP $786

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

MSRP $786


Maybe the slide of the PM40 is a bit less than two ounces heavier, but that doesn't automatically make it meaningfully more expensive to produce.

It isn't like they are taking PM9 slides and adding material to them after, I'm betting the difference is just like the Glock 20/21 difference, a little material milled out of the inside of the lighter caliber's slide that is left in there for the heavier one. Could actually take LESS time and money to make the .40 slides. Not meaningfully, but it's just as likely that it costs them less to make the heavier slide than the lighter one.

The PM45 has an MSRP $19 higher than the other two, also it is slightly larger, and heavier than the PM40. It's about the same price difference as the large frame vs small frame Glocks, which don't cost any more or less between the standard types. The Practical/Tactical models cost more, and the target models cost more, but the subs, compacts, and full sizes all cost the same in the same frame size.
 
NG VI said:
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM40.asp

MSRP $786

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

MSRP $786


Maybe the slide of the PM40 is a bit less than two ounces heavier, but that doesn't automatically make it meaningfully more expensive to produce.

It isn't like they are taking PM9 slides and adding material to them after, I'm betting the difference is just like the Glock 20/21 difference, a little material milled out of the inside of the lighter caliber's slide that is left in there for the heavier one. Could actually take LESS time and money to make the .40 slides. Not meaningfully, but it's just as likely that it costs them less to make the heavier slide than the lighter one.

The PM45 has an MSRP $19 higher than the other two, also it is slightly larger, and heavier than the PM40. It's about the same price difference as the large frame vs small frame Glocks, which don't cost any more or less between the standard types. The Practical/Tactical models cost more, and the target models cost more, but the subs, compacts, and full sizes all cost the same in the same frame size.
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Just because the MSRP is the same doesn't mean that the dealer paid the exact same price for both models. There could be any number of legitimate reasons why one caliber gun costs more than the other, sometimes the 9mm is even more expensive than the .40. Like I said, Kahr almost certainly makes a lot more PM9's than they do PM40's, maybe the distributors have more difficulty getting them and thus charge more for them. Or the dealer could be the only shop in town that stocks the .40 because it doesn't sell as well, at least he actually has the gun you want in stock, why shouldn't he get a couple extra dollars for having his money sit in the case longer until you buy it? The last time I checked there's no law that dealers have to have the exact same profit margin on every item, stores exist to make money, not to make sure you can get every gun you want at the lowest possible price. Supply and demand, if there's less of a particular model available, they can get away with charging more for it, and from a business standpoint they should. How much of a price difference are we talking about anyway?

I doubt that all of the extra weight is the slide, I'm sure the frame is built stronger as well, which could possibly cost more. Either way, the point is 9mm and .40 versions of guns aren't almost always exactly the same except for the barrel, as you said in your original post.
 
Its called the free market.... Learn it. Live it . Love it.... :D
 
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+1 Welcome to a free course in marketing and P.T. Barnum. The market price is what the last buyer was willing to pay for it and there's a sucker born every minute. The O.P. is absolutely correct in thinking the difference in manufacturing costs are minimal. Here's the rub: costs and market prices are almost totally unrelated, insofar as the buyers being willing to pay for a perceived "superior" product as the popular opinion indicates.

Course elective: Norinco. Why do you think, like everything else made in China, Northern Industries can make knockoffs and undersell all the popular models out there (start w/ the 1911s)? Same design, same machined forging process (in some cases superior metalurgy). Low prices. And I can't see Norinco losing money with every pistol ( or anything) they sell.
 
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