Saw the "New" JFK Shooting theory on TV

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Somewhere I have a magazine article that mentions a recreation of the Kennedy shooting done by Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor. I believe the recreation was done the same weekend as one of the Second Chance pin shoots.

IIRC, they built a tower of about the right height and had some sort of dolly system to create a moving target. All of the details on distance, angles, cover, etc, were not 100% accurate, but they were as close as they could come under the circumstances.

They had a Carcano, with a cheap scope and ammo, and had various shooters try to make the shots. They didn't come up with a firm conclustion, but did make some interesting observations. Some shooters found it easier to make the shots using iron sights instead of the scope, and I believe the shooter with the best time (closest to what was believed to be Oswald's time) who made the hits was cross-eye dominant and had some odd advantage on working the bolt because of how he positioned the rifle, which hand he held everything with, etc. I can't remember the exact details, but he was markedly faster than the other shooters.

I wish I could find that article, but I have no idea where it is. Anyone else remember this?
 
The conspiracy theories are very attractive. That's why I started researching the event.

They're interesting, thought provoking. But when you look at the hard evidence, there isn't any that drives one away from Oswald as the solitary shooter.

I'll go on record right now as saying that a lot of what people believe to be hard facts in this case are absolute bunk.

Here are some facts.

The shot can be made. I watched a guy make all three shots repeatedly on a recreation that aired last night. He made all three shots on his FIRST try and was able to duplicate them repeatedly. Prior to this, there have been at least two other recreations in which shooters have duplicated the shots.

The bullet is far from pristine. It is flattened and bent, missing some lead that was squeezed out of the jacket at the base, and there is a hunk out of the ogive on the opposite side of the picture that is typically shown to support the pristine bullet theory. The 6.5mmCarcano was a relatively slow, but very heavy for caliber bullet and was an amazing penetrator. Based on what I've researched on this caliber and bullet style, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the bullet could do the damage it did and survive in the condition it did.

The bullet was not magic. The magic bullet theorists have Connally in the wrong position. From the film it's clear that he was half turned at the moment of the shot, and from the limo, you can see that he was seated farther inboard and lower than JFK. Recreations show that the bullet travelled in virtually a straight line until it stopped in Connally's thigh.

There was no one shooting from storm drains. The one on the street didn't offer a view of the targets until after all the shots were fired. The one on the left side of the overpass wasn't built until after the shooting. Three men were standing in front of the one on the right side of the overpass and there were people in close proximity.

There is no credible photographic evidence of anyone on the grassy knoll. The photo that is often cited was blown up past the capability of the film to record information. As already mentioned, the particles in the film are bigger than the details that people are saying are evidence.

The third shot came from the back. Autopsy drawings and X-Rays show a clear entrance wound at the top back of the head. It was not visible from anywhere in front of the motorcade and would be very difficult to hit unless the shooter was above the target.

It doesn't make any difference which way Kennedy moved when shot. Bodies are not inert objects like pumpkins and fruit cans. They move and react when stimulated. Brain shots which do not cut the brain stem commonly result in convulsive motion.

By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it.
 
If oswald did it himself, how did he get the motorcade route to be changed at the last minute so that it conveniently went by his job at the schoolbook depository? The route was published in the paper the day before-- and it was a more sensible route-- it went straight rather than turning right and then turning left in front of the depository.

If it was just convenient that the route was changed that morning, how did he know it happend to be changed? Or do you think he went to work with the rifle every morning?

And do you think he got the Secret Service to leave the bulletproof bubble top off the limo by slipping them a $50 bill?

Oswald worked there for quite awhile before kennedy came to dallas... and even if he got the job *after* the visit to dallas was announced, how did he get the the route changed at the last minute?

And why did Ruby shoot him? And why was Ruby able to slip in with a gun anyway? Either Ruby did it at the behest of the mob, or he did it for some other reason. IF the mob, then that indicates conspiracy. IF for some other reason, what reason was it? Killing oswald is mighty convenient, especially with him mouthing off about being a patsy.

And the route change, and removal of the bubble top are very convenient as well.

I think the re-creations where all three shots are fired are giving the rifleman more time than the zapruder film indicates there was between the magic bullet and the head shot.

And finally, ABC News is telling us right now that it was Oswald, could only have been Oswald, and ignores all the inconsitencies. IF that's not proof of a conspiracy, what is!?!! "Peter Jennings Reports" but doesn't inquire.
 
People clearly knew where the motorcade was going ahead of time. They can be seen lining the road in the film. I don't know if Oswald thought it was going past his workplace when he left that morning, but I do think he was planning to try to get a shot regardless of where he had to set up.

JFK wanted the bubble left off. That's pretty well documented.

Oswald worked at the depository for a few months before the shooting. He didn't get the job so he could shoot JFK, in fact, he didn't get the job at all. A friend of his wife's helped him find it. IMO, the chance to shoot JFK pretty much fell into his lap. According to his wife, he got the rifle to assassinate another political figure but failed. When he got a "second chance" he made it good.

Ruby was a real fruitloop with a reputation for having a very volatile temper and known to carry a gun. He was at the police station often because he felt that knowing the police would help him keep his strip-joint open. Also, if you watch the film, you will see that it was anything but an exclusive event--the place was packed. Employees indicate that he frequently went out of his way in an attempt to keep a good relationship with the local police and as such would have been a familiar face at the station. He told his brother after the fact that he couldn't stand to see Oswald smiling after what he had done and shot him on impulse. Although he had a criminal past, there was no evidence linking him to organized crime.

The timing on the recreation shoots was developed from the Zapruder film.

Most people have developed their opinions based on movies and what they have heard--a lot of that gets repeated over and over until many think it's truth. For those who want to know more than that there's a lot of written information, and while a lot of it is pure BS, after you spend enough time with the topic it gets easier to see what makes sense and what doesn't.

Like I said before. There are lot of interesting questions and anomalies--but not a single shred of hard evidence that would disprove the conclusion that Oswald was the shooter and acting alone.
 
I've attempted to back up my statement about the route being changed, but I cannot find evidence to do so. I may have been misinformed.

He would have had an easier shot when the car was coming directly toward him, rather than going past him and away.... but that's just suspicious, maybe he had a failure.

Anyway, how could oswald have known the bullet top would be taken off?

I've just seen a recreation that shows the shots happening much more slowly than I'd previously thought.

But the fence on the grassy knoll is a better place to shoot from, and there are witnesses who say they saw people there and one who says he saw a two man shooting team.
 
"By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it."

Decorticate Posturing

Decorticate posture is an abnormal posturing indicated by rigidity, flexion of the arms, clenched fists, and extended legs. The arms are bent inward toward the body with the wrists and fingers bent and held on the chest. Decorticate posture indicates damage to the corticospinal tract.
 
I just don't see it. If JFK got shot from behind, why didn't the bullet take his face off ? That shot to the head made his head fly back and to the left, this tell's me that it came from the front. We all know entry wounds are tiny and exit wounds are much larger. This comment is from my uncle, who has spent time in Korea, and has done his fair share of "target practice".
 
"why didn't the bullet take his face off "

Have you seen the pictures of him lying on the slab ?
 
DIETRYN,

The impact was right at the top right of his head. Just an inch or two higher and it would have missed all together. His head was tilted forward and left at the time so it didn't go through his face.

Don,

I can't remember the details, but I recall a pretty convincing explanation of why the shot on the approaching motorcade would have been less desirable.

As for the bullet top, my guess is that the public probably didn't think much about such things in that era. Or maybe LHO figured that a rifle bullet would penetrate--dunno.

As for the witnesses, there were pretty much witnesses to support every scenario you can imagine. IIRC, there were several people who were certain that no one shot from the grassy knoll to go along with the few who said they thought someone did. The best example of this is LHO shooting the police officer. There were 4 witnesses and they couldn't even agree which direction LHO was walking just before the shooting...
 
As to the face being blown off-- we would have seen that in the zapruder film, but we didn't.... which also indicates a shot from the side or front....or, actually, side rear, but not nearly as far back as the depository building.

According to the recreation I just saw, the second shot from the depostiory building would have taken off his whole face, as it would have been directly behind.
 
Most people are really crappy witnesses. Ask 100 different people what they saw, get 100 different stories. Unless you are conciously making an effort to chronicle an event, you probably won't have it quite right.

I once saw a car chase with shots fired. The chase car (the one doing the shooting) tried to take a turn too fast and ran into a car sitting at a traffic light. It backed up, then proceeded to chase the other car again.
When the police got there, I told them I had seen it from my balcony.
White Cadillac being chased by a gray primered Chevy. He asked me "are you sure it wasn't green?"
Duh....nope, not sure. Unless you're concentrating, the power of suggestion is pretty strong.
 
Don,

At the moment of the head shot, JFK was slumped over (as if looking down into the car) and leaning slightly to his left.

It would be pretty difficult to blow his face off unless you shot him from the side.

Autopsy drawings and X-Rays showed an entrance wound on the upper right back of his head. If you can picture his position, you can see that it's almost impossible to hit that spot from anywhere other than behind and above the car.

I gave up trying to untangle all the autopsy BS from various sources. There was lots of stupid stuff done with regard to the autopsy--just no other way to put it. Some of it appeared to be petty turf wars, some of it contingency operations, some of it people just wanting to get in on the "action". But there was some hard evidence that came out of it (X-Rays are pretty conclusive) and all of that hard evidence points to the head shot coming from above and behind.

The flap opened up because the bullet didn't hit the middle of the skull and exit the other side. It hit so that it just caught the upper right back of the skull and exited the right top side of the skull. A neat entry wound, but the bullet hit the side of the skull from the inside at a pretty oblique angle which blew out the side the head.

Again, none of that makes sense unless you check the film and verify the position of JFK at the shot. Slumped over as if looking down into the car and at the same time leaning to his left.
 
What strikes me is how much EASIER it would have been to fire from LHO's position in the depository than from the knoll. The knoll is closer, but that's actually a problem when you're shooting a rifle at a target moving across your field of vision. It requires a total readjustment for every shot.
 
Does anybody know why Jackie Kennedy climbed up on the trunk of the limo after the final shot?
 
Does anybody know why Jackie Kennedy climbed up on the trunk of the limo after the final shot?
Click to expand...

She was attempting to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull. She said this herself in remarks after the fact.
 
Teppo, I think you are right. I seem to recall that now as I visit the more cobweb cluttered part of my memory. All of this brings back a lot of 40 year old memories, such as:

- standing on Wisconsin Ave. in D.C as the Navy ambulance slowly drove by all lit up inside with Jackie sitting by her husband's casket. They were on their way to the Bethesda Naval Hospital. Still not sure why they took that route from Andrews Air Force base which is on the other side of town. Except maybe they had changed there minds about how to handle the body at the last minute.

We had gone up to the corner of Wisc. and Harrison Street because we heard that Gawlers Funeral Home at that intersection was going to handle the burial. Even had a small bus load of Marines there in dress blues. We only lived a block away from Gawlers.

- The next day, Saturday and that part of NW Washington was a ghost town. I think everybody must have been glued to their TV watching the news.

- On Sunday, watching TV just as Ruby shot Oswald.

- On Monday, standing on the grounds of the Lincoln Memorial with a terrific close view of the funeral procession slowly marching and driving by to the sound of muffled drums and Cesar Franck's funeral dirge. Got to see many of the world leaders or their representatives, including LBJ, quite close up. And you could tell the Secret Service was carrying some big weapons under their top coats.
 
p587 of David Lifton's book "Best Evidence" shows a very clear picture of the entrance wound as I described it.

Jackie's story is borne out by Connally's wife. She states that after the third shot she heard Jackie say "They've killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand." After watching the film, I suspect Jackie was talking to the SS Agent who jumped up on the trunk of the limo.
 
"By the way, JFK was not reaching for his throat. The motion he made is a textbook involuntary reaction to an upper spinal cord injury. I can't remember the technical term, but if you look at the film, you'll see that his hands are balled up in fists and never come close to his throat. Also, people don't stick their elbows up like that when they reach for their throat. Maybe someone will chime in with the name--I can't recall it."


Thorburn's Position.
 
Thorburn's Position.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I was trying for. A special case of the decorticate posture that 444 mentioned.

Thanks--I'll have to write it down somewhere.
 
The problem with this topic is that htere is no standard for evidence in the public.

Peter Jennings makes some unsubstantiated claim, and someone on here will say "its been PROVEN that...."

People have their beliefs and they cannot seperate their beliefs from what they *know*.


I'm sitting here with no theory of what happened, merely pointing out problems with the official story, and other stories as they come up.

And the response is "Well, so and so has been PROVEN" or "There's no EVIDENCE for that".

When in reality, what the person is actually saying is that "that disagrees with my BELIEFS so it must be WRONG."

JohnKSa has provided counter argument. That's not what I'm talking about. But even he has made claims that he hasn't backed up, and those are what I am talking about (but more from others who have never provided any counter argument.)

This topic can't even be addressed decently in a TV special, let alone in a forum where most of the participants are, frankly, uninformed.

People believe what the government tells them to believe, generally. And arguing with them can get pointless quickly.

To stick to objective reality, unless you've been in dealy plaza, its hard for me to point out actual facts that you can verify--- cause otherwise you're going on what you were told by someone.

Anyway, if you get a chance... go there and look over the scene for yourself. Its well worth it.

But also, please think about what you know and what you don't know. Someones claims are not proof.
 
Don,

A lot of things have been discussed on this thread. It would be incredibly time consuming for me to sort through the 30 or so books on the topic that I own to try to cite sources on every single statement I made. To complicate the situation, I have read a good many books on the topic that I do not currently own and watched a good many documentaries that I do not have on tape.

Besides, in all fairness, I did the research to satisfy my own curiousity, if you have a lot of questions, the same material is available to you as was to me.

Although I believe that Oswald was the only shooter and was not part of any conspiracy, I'm not so foolish as to say that the lone gunman theory is the only possible solution.

I do feel quite safe in saying that all of the hard evidence that is available points to LHO as the lone gunman, and in further saying that there is not a single piece of hard evidence that can disprove that he was the lone gunman.

I have also had some limited dealings with the government, and find it extremely improbable that a secret as big as an assassination conspiracy could be kept for 40 years. Also, as time passes, I find it more and more improbable that anyone who has such a strong and unfading motive to keep the secret could have maintained for 40 years the power to keep it.
 
I read the first page, then skipped to the end to post this. So if it's already been said, please excuse me.

There is one basic question/issue that clearly points to a conspiracy/coverup:

Why was the evidence and testimony that the Warren Commmission (supposedly) examined sealed for 50 years ? Why can't we see it ?
 
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