Scary range guy and the USP
- Thread starter vanbeast
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Hmmm... It's really not that unusual...
Happens all the time with a 5-lb Glock, or XD trigger (USP's SA is also rated 5 lbs with a quarter inch take-up or so). Trigger safety akin to having the parking brake lever on top of the gas pedal. Cocked single action if you ask me. These guns are used all the time in work and competition...
I personally do not subscribe to such set-up. But looking around, we see a great many people who prefer their guns that way. As long as they observe when to activate the trigger finger, it's as safe as any other gun.
BerettaNut92
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I agree his safety will have to be addressed...it's a sport but getting shot is no fun.
I wouldn't ding him on the equipment rules, just kindly let him know that he will have to compete in Limited 10. Is he shooting 9mm or .40?
I wouldn't ding him on the equipment rules, just kindly let him know that he will have to compete in Limited 10. Is he shooting 9mm or .40?
vanbeast:
OK, for the record, I really am on your side. I abhor unsafe gun handling and a questionable pistol in the hands of a marginal shooter who also has too much "attitude" is a wreck waiting to happen. All I am saying is to apply the rules uniformly and according to "the book" so it won't come around and bite you in the butt.
I am not familiar with the workings of the USP but New_comer is correct that pistols minus external controls are really pretty common as long as they are DA/SA or safe action pistols. However, a single action pistol must be holstered with the safety on. If the competitor in question has made an unsafe modification to his pistol that is not one of the variants listed by the manufacturer, or if he has defeated the primary safety with aftermarket parts or by removing/deactivating factory parts, you could build a case for withdrawing the pistol from competition under rule 5.2.5 which states in part,
Now before you guys get the flame throwers out, my take on this is the guy has repeatedly violated safety rules, is ignoring the range officials, might have an unsafe pistol and has been cut way too much slack. It seems like the issue is how legalistic and strict should the club be and how do they go about getting through to this bone head now that they let his antics slide. At times like this the club officials just need to take the guy aside and have one of those come to Jesus meetings. If the guy really is unsafe, document his behavior, take appropriate action, and if need be mail your concerns to USPSA. In extreme cases, USPSA has been known to revoke membership and ban shooters for life.
OK, for the record, I really am on your side. I abhor unsafe gun handling and a questionable pistol in the hands of a marginal shooter who also has too much "attitude" is a wreck waiting to happen. All I am saying is to apply the rules uniformly and according to "the book" so it won't come around and bite you in the butt.
I am not familiar with the workings of the USP but New_comer is correct that pistols minus external controls are really pretty common as long as they are DA/SA or safe action pistols. However, a single action pistol must be holstered with the safety on. If the competitor in question has made an unsafe modification to his pistol that is not one of the variants listed by the manufacturer, or if he has defeated the primary safety with aftermarket parts or by removing/deactivating factory parts, you could build a case for withdrawing the pistol from competition under rule 5.2.5 which states in part,
Now before you guys get the flame throwers out, my take on this is the guy has repeatedly violated safety rules, is ignoring the range officials, might have an unsafe pistol and has been cut way too much slack. It seems like the issue is how legalistic and strict should the club be and how do they go about getting through to this bone head now that they let his antics slide. At times like this the club officials just need to take the guy aside and have one of those come to Jesus meetings. If the guy really is unsafe, document his behavior, take appropriate action, and if need be mail your concerns to USPSA. In extreme cases, USPSA has been known to revoke membership and ban shooters for life.
c_yeager: *I* don't want to do anything, I'm describing what others said. His way of drawing and reholstering is such that the gun is ALMOST at the 180. Any variation and it would be. He has disregarded instructions to change that in the past. The folks mentioned there were a number of other things he was doing that were unsafe, but I don't know what they are and I didn't notice.
new_comer: well, I shoot an XD. I disagree with you in some ways because of the way I use my gun, but I know many others don't. I keep my grip safety engaged when I'm holstering (I sort of hold the gun with my fingertips) so that even if something manages to get in the trigger guard, it's not going to fire. I can see what you are saying, though, at least as far as the Glocks are concerned.
Skunk: .40. He's been told repeatedly that he can't shoot production, but keeps forgetting. He's been told how to work up a major .40 load, but doesn't seem to bother.
Generally: remember, I have no authority in this, I'm just relating a story. I'm hoping to communicate some of the things I see here back to the folks with actual decision making abilities. I was mostly trying to determine whether or not it was possible to remove both the decocker and safety from a USP.
new_comer: well, I shoot an XD. I disagree with you in some ways because of the way I use my gun, but I know many others don't. I keep my grip safety engaged when I'm holstering (I sort of hold the gun with my fingertips) so that even if something manages to get in the trigger guard, it's not going to fire. I can see what you are saying, though, at least as far as the Glocks are concerned.
Skunk: .40. He's been told repeatedly that he can't shoot production, but keeps forgetting. He's been told how to work up a major .40 load, but doesn't seem to bother.
Generally: remember, I have no authority in this, I'm just relating a story. I'm hoping to communicate some of the things I see here back to the folks with actual decision making abilities. I was mostly trying to determine whether or not it was possible to remove both the decocker and safety from a USP.
Ankeny:
That's good info, thanks for digging up that rule. I think that's what the MD had in mind. From all indications this guy had defeated the only safety mechanisms his gun had. Now, that may be fine on it's own, but combined with the way he handles his gun, and other things about his personality, there seemed to be some belief that he may not realize exactly how dangerous that is.
Y'know, I like the guy just fine. I think he did some bad stuff at the match and wasn't that open to criticism/correction, but we all get like that sometimes. I just don't want to see anyone get shot. If he has to get DQ'ed once to finally make the things the RO's have been telling him sink in, then I'd rather that happen then continue to shoot with this guy and his actions.
That's good info, thanks for digging up that rule. I think that's what the MD had in mind. From all indications this guy had defeated the only safety mechanisms his gun had. Now, that may be fine on it's own, but combined with the way he handles his gun, and other things about his personality, there seemed to be some belief that he may not realize exactly how dangerous that is.
EXACTLY. That is exactly it.
Y'know, I like the guy just fine. I think he did some bad stuff at the match and wasn't that open to criticism/correction, but we all get like that sometimes. I just don't want to see anyone get shot. If he has to get DQ'ed once to finally make the things the RO's have been telling him sink in, then I'd rather that happen then continue to shoot with this guy and his actions.
Kobun
Member
OK, as I do not get 100% what the person in question did or did not do I'll give you the rules that apply.
IPSC Ed. 14
5.3.6.4 [Competitor shall not be permitted to commence a cource of fire wearing:] A holster, with the muzzle of the handgun pointing farther than 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed.
10.3.8 [Match Disqualification for Safety Infractions-] Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.
IPSC Ed. 14
5.3.6.4 [Competitor shall not be permitted to commence a cource of fire wearing:] A holster, with the muzzle of the handgun pointing farther than 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed.
10.3.8 [Match Disqualification for Safety Infractions-] Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.
Black Snowman
Member
I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the rules but whenever I shoot my Glock in competition I don't have a round chambered. As a trade off for double then single trigger pull to maintain the same level of safety I would always have to rack the slide before firing. I felt this was a fair trade-off with the double/single action pistols that had the odd 1st shot. I asked about it before my 1st shoot and found that in our informal shoots this was actually a rule. Just as much for fair competition as it was for safety.
Only vaugely related, but I thought I'd share. As for my opinion on the situation, if people feel unsafe, it most likely IS unsafe and it sounds like people let their discomfort be known. You're definately doing the right thing by keeping tabs on him and warning him and those around him.
Only vaugely related, but I thought I'd share. As for my opinion on the situation, if people feel unsafe, it most likely IS unsafe and it sounds like people let their discomfort be known. You're definately doing the right thing by keeping tabs on him and warning him and those around him.
Sean Smith
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I'm pretty far from a rules Nazi, but it would seem like the following would pertain to the situation in question:
The guy was repeatedly told not to do something safety-related and blew it off. That is the paramount issue here.
The guy was repeatedly told not to do something safety-related and blew it off. That is the paramount issue here.
BerettaNut92
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Vanbeast, AFAIK you could still shoot .40 in Production, but you get scored as minor no matter what?
Skunk, you're absolutely right, I didn't explain very well.
What I meant is that due to the condition of his gun (ie, SA first shot) he's not in Production, no matter what. Therefore, to be helpful people have been telling him how to make a major .40 load so as to not be penalized.
Man, I am not doing a good job explaining myself in this thread... :banghead:
What I meant is that due to the condition of his gun (ie, SA first shot) he's not in Production, no matter what. Therefore, to be helpful people have been telling him how to make a major .40 load so as to not be penalized.
Man, I am not doing a good job explaining myself in this thread... :banghead:
New_comer
Member
Maybe the guy's shooting just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Seems like he wouldn't care being classed in Open or Modified, as long as gets to shoot.
But safety is paramount!
As long as he sticks with the rules as enforced by the RO, he's ok by me. If he's bent on being a regular PITA, send him packing!
But safety is paramount!
As long as he sticks with the rules as enforced by the RO, he's ok by me. If he's bent on being a regular PITA, send him packing!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Reminds me of a Story
that I got from an LEO buddy. Seems this guy showed up at a turkey
shoot...drunk. After watching the scattergunners shoot for a while,
he laughed and loudly declared that he could knock the center out
of the card with his pistol. He produced a 1911, fired three rounds
downrange, and stuffed the pistol back into the front of his pants.
Guess what he shot clean off. (HINT: Now he squats to pee.)
Wotta world, huh?
Tuner
that I got from an LEO buddy. Seems this guy showed up at a turkey
shoot...drunk. After watching the scattergunners shoot for a while,
he laughed and loudly declared that he could knock the center out
of the card with his pistol. He produced a 1911, fired three rounds
downrange, and stuffed the pistol back into the front of his pants.
Guess what he shot clean off. (HINT: Now he squats to pee.)
Wotta world, huh?
Tuner
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