Rosshady - you are not defenseless - you may be outgunned, but you are not defenseless. Remember the BG is not expecting resistence, rather terror on the part of the vicitims. Attacking gives you a chance, not a guaranteed result, but a chance to prevail.
School Intruders
- Thread starter Hadaku
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Rossshady120
member
you got high hopes chuck norris
threefeathers
member
I am a teacher/coach and I am very prepared. Three Infantry or MC vets are within 2 rooms of me. I have a slingshot with solid brass balls hidden. A hammer I just happen to have so I can hang pics on the wall, and a fire extinguisher that will shoot a burst of really nasty stuff. I've trained my students to throw their book bags hard at anyone trying to gain entry. The student nearest the door is to slide the heavy podium in front of it. This podium will plus the door will stop most handgun rounds. I have a SOCOM16 in a deliberately built, hidden compartment of my truck. My best friend is the School Cop who I go shooting with and he can shoot!
The Deer Hunter
Member
Weapon of choice: Stapler. I would probably take the can of white out myself and throw it in his eyes...
But honestly I don't think a stapler is going to do much.
While I'm not saying you shouldn't try to arm yourself is a bad idea, I don't think it would be of much help in your truck. That said, I don't think it's the best Idea to bring a rifle to school.
ccsniper
member
very very very very bad idea. cops are called, "there is someone in the building with a gun" they get there see you and expect the worst. bang bang, your laying on the floor with two newly added holes and the badguy, now looks like a hostage.
when i was a little kid in middle school, i use to prepare for that stuff, except i was some kinda ninja and would save the day by taking out all of the bg's myself, (there were often more than one) and then the police would give me the perps guns to thank me. i wish my mind was that naive again.
jerryrigger
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 82
i'm also a presently an undergrad student, and ccw permit holder, and after the recent events at VT etc., i'm appauled that people think that allowing permit holders to carry at school is a bad thing. i understand that it is the mainstream thought process is that guns=bad and no guns=good...the problem with this whole idea has been stated:a bad person with this kind of idea is not going to go "oh wait, i can't bring my weapon there" and so we who abide by the law because it is the right thing to do are left defenseless. i have not reached the point where i have decided that carrying a gun to school because of this possibility is my preference because of the legal ****storm (for lack of a better word) that could possibly accompany it. i do take my folding knife everywhere, which would probably be viewed as bad enough, although in reality the only way this could help is with a large amount of luck (dont bring a knife to a gun fight!). i have zero faith in the plan of campus police etc. to stop an active shooter. they may be able to isolate the shooter in one building, but all the does is give him/her a captive group of victims, which i would certainly prefer not to be. response time from anyone remotely capable of coming in and stopping the shooter with force (read swat etc.) is not going to be under 3 mins...SO-i think that it should be allowed that ccw holders register themselves with campus police, possibly pass a test or maybe even qualify (real shooting) for the ability to carry at school. they could have pictures and descriptions on file with campus pd, have meetings etc. so people could get to know each other so that if the unthinkable were to happen they could know who's who. this way, if a situation like VT were to happen, a 911 call and identification would give your picture and description to those responding very quickly. there is the very small chance that one of these people could somehow become an active shooter, but the amount of shootings perpetrated by legal ccw permit holders pales in comparison to the amount perpetrated by non permit holders, and at the very least, if this were to happen, there would be a photo and description of the shooter out there as well, and he/she could possibly be identified more readily by the other ccw permit holders there. if anybody would like to add to my idea or change it i would love to hear any suggestions. in truth, though, there really is no perfect solution here, short of a way to make absolute sure that no one can actually get a gun onto a campus. if that were the case, then i would have no problem not being able to carry on campus. but when only the people who would abide by the law are disarmed, and left at the mercy of those who would not, there is a problem.
mljdeckard
Member
I have a rifle in my vehicle as well. If a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle, your rifle must be part of the plan, even if there is little likelihood the engagement will go far enough that you actually have time to get to it and back in to use it before either the shooter is dead, or the police show up.
Honestly, there would be very narrow circumstances under which I would go back in to a lead salad after having escaped it, but it could happen. My purpose in life is to get myself and my family out of trouble. BUT, If I was out, and there was still shooting, and the police weren't there, I would at least LOOK to see if I could get back in and do anything about it. But if I'm going back in, it makes much more sense to have a weapon with OFFENSIVE range and power. A SOCOM 16 would be great, but I usually have an SKS, because if I got into a heated discussion with a cop who thinks it's illegal for me to have it, and decides to hold it for me until later, I wouldn't cry over the dollar value, and I could replace it at the next pawn shop very easily.
The problem with using 911 and hoping you will be ID'd in advance, is that there will be a hundred or more 911 calls going on all at once. Everyone will be overwhelmed and confused.
And you are absolutely right. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Honestly, there would be very narrow circumstances under which I would go back in to a lead salad after having escaped it, but it could happen. My purpose in life is to get myself and my family out of trouble. BUT, If I was out, and there was still shooting, and the police weren't there, I would at least LOOK to see if I could get back in and do anything about it. But if I'm going back in, it makes much more sense to have a weapon with OFFENSIVE range and power. A SOCOM 16 would be great, but I usually have an SKS, because if I got into a heated discussion with a cop who thinks it's illegal for me to have it, and decides to hold it for me until later, I wouldn't cry over the dollar value, and I could replace it at the next pawn shop very easily.
The problem with using 911 and hoping you will be ID'd in advance, is that there will be a hundred or more 911 calls going on all at once. Everyone will be overwhelmed and confused.
And you are absolutely right. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Rossshady120
member
do you know how far i have to park my car from my class........ rifle in a trunk might as well be left at home because you won't be able to get it. there has bin some cases where a student ran to there car and got there pistol and dropped the BG. And rifle on school grounds is BIG JAIL TIME im talking give me your fruit cocktail ****.
mljdeckard
Member
Like we say, it's part of having a real plan. You may or may not have time to get it. But if you don't HAVE it, it's not even an option.
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
The real advantage of a gun, other than a high speed projectile, is distance. Guns give someone the ability to engage at vast distances that other weapons, such as knives, don't permit. To make a long story short, if the 'intruder' is not shooting and is yelling at people or otherwise showing any sort of hesitation, put your hands up and ask him something. Step out from the group and make him notice you. Get closer without threatening him. There are multiple classes that teach how to disarm an opponent, as well as mutiple videos online. I'm not saying simply watching the video will help, but get a buddy to help you. have him hold something to you in various positions like a gun and practice the moves you get taught from tutorials or a class.
Bottom line is remove the advantage of angles and distance.
Bottom line is remove the advantage of angles and distance.
SSN Vet
Member
concealed is as concealed does.....
if you have to work in the land where sheeple rule...
deep concealed is as deep concealed does....
the biggest risk you have is that of running your own mouth, as loose lips still do sink ships.
Thunderware and a Karh PM9 would be very difficult to find out, unless you have to go through metal detectors or such.
if you have to work in the land where sheeple rule...
deep concealed is as deep concealed does....
the biggest risk you have is that of running your own mouth, as loose lips still do sink ships.
Thunderware and a Karh PM9 would be very difficult to find out, unless you have to go through metal detectors or such.
ccsniper
member
thats also a bad idea, if you get caught, then your going to jail.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
That depends on the laws in your state. Which you should know.
If there is any additional penalty in Georgia besides carrying concealed without a permit, I have never seen it. I have read the statutes in the entire section dealing with firearms offenses. The first offense is a misdemeanor.
I have been caught carrying without permission. Now it cost me a lot of money as a conviction could have also cost me my nursing license. So I had to fight it much harder than someone not in the same position. But, I didn't go to jail. It is unlikely that I would have gone to jail if I had been convicted. Prison time for a conviction of a misdemeanor? First offense? Unlikely. Probably would have been probation and a fine.
Once again, knowing your state's laws is imperative. I don't believe it's a misdemeanor everywhere.
You need to try some of these gung-fu stapler attacks and sneaking up on the guy in FOF with realistic school distances and a determined shooter. 
The only real answer for a well planned attack (like Cho) is immediate access to firearms. :banghead:
The only real answer for a well planned attack (like Cho) is immediate access to firearms. :banghead:
Joe Demko
Member
I placed having an effective tool for self-defense above compliance with rules put in place by fools who denied me the means to protect myself and simultaneously denied responsibility for protecting me.
Call it civil disobedience.
Call it refusing to suffer the whims and vagaries of fools.
Call it anything you like.
I'll still do what I need to do.
You're in a GUN FREE ZONE -- Ask the Admin. if they'll issue cyanide tablets for you and your students.
Seriously, see if you can't get Admin. to consider the ramifications of designating the school as being administratively and systematically disarmed.
Take a duck decoy into the next staff meeting. Put the "sitting duck" in the middle of the conference table, and then ask staff if they think they can "kill the duck" . . .
Consider the ramifications of this extended metaphor.
Seek a work-place which affords Constitutional Civil Liberties.
Seriously, see if you can't get Admin. to consider the ramifications of designating the school as being administratively and systematically disarmed.
Take a duck decoy into the next staff meeting. Put the "sitting duck" in the middle of the conference table, and then ask staff if they think they can "kill the duck" . . .
Consider the ramifications of this extended metaphor.
Seek a work-place which affords Constitutional Civil Liberties.
physics
Member
Not even campus security is allowed guns at Portland State. I brought all this up at a public safety meeting where they were instituting this new fad of emergency notifications and such. They blew me off and wouldn't let me speak anymore. The security guards and a bunch of other people approached me afterward and voiced agreement with my position.
I followed up with an email, but was of course ignored.
I followed up with an email, but was of course ignored.
WardenWolf
member
Firstly, if the intruder has already gained entrance to the classroom before you have started to react, you've already lost. There will be no time to mount an effective defense and most, if not all, people in the classroom will be slain. Beyond that, the best thing you can do is use a desk as a shield / ram and bumrush him.
Ideally, if you are made aware of the intruder before he has gained access to the room you are in, you will have locked the door, moved out of sight of all windows, and turned multiple desks on their sides, in front of another, to act as shields.
If you cannot lock the door, you should be prepared to surprise the intruder the moment he enters the room. Station yourself directly adjacent to the door, ideally with one person on either side of it. The moment he enters, attempt to gain control of his gun arm. It is debatable which side of the gun arm is best to be on, inside or outside.
If you are on the outside, seize the wrist such that it locks the hand, and attempt to break his arm at the elbow. Also strike him in the face with your elbow and other hand as best you can.
If you are on the inside, grab the wrist with your outside hand, then the forearm with your inside hand. Then move the outside hand to the gun. Next strike him in the face with the elbow of your inside arm, followed by a strike to the wrist while pulling the gun away. You SHOULD get it.
A rifle MUST be disarmed from the inside angle. Any attempt to disarm a rifle by attacking from the outside will almost assuredly result in failure, as he is able to hold onto the gun with 2 hands and easily jerk it away from you. If you are inside, he cannot simply jerk away as he does not have the leverage. Grab the rifle with both hands, step in, strike with elbow twice, pull away.
Ideally, if you are made aware of the intruder before he has gained access to the room you are in, you will have locked the door, moved out of sight of all windows, and turned multiple desks on their sides, in front of another, to act as shields.
If you cannot lock the door, you should be prepared to surprise the intruder the moment he enters the room. Station yourself directly adjacent to the door, ideally with one person on either side of it. The moment he enters, attempt to gain control of his gun arm. It is debatable which side of the gun arm is best to be on, inside or outside.
If you are on the outside, seize the wrist such that it locks the hand, and attempt to break his arm at the elbow. Also strike him in the face with your elbow and other hand as best you can.
If you are on the inside, grab the wrist with your outside hand, then the forearm with your inside hand. Then move the outside hand to the gun. Next strike him in the face with the elbow of your inside arm, followed by a strike to the wrist while pulling the gun away. You SHOULD get it.
A rifle MUST be disarmed from the inside angle. Any attempt to disarm a rifle by attacking from the outside will almost assuredly result in failure, as he is able to hold onto the gun with 2 hands and easily jerk it away from you. If you are inside, he cannot simply jerk away as he does not have the leverage. Grab the rifle with both hands, step in, strike with elbow twice, pull away.
Joe Demko
Member
...or you can station yourself beside the door and shoot him in the head with the .32 you had discretely carried in your pocket for lo these many years.
sm
member
Mr. Joe Demko is a mighty wise gentleman.
Thanks Joe for sharing your wisdom with us again.
steve
Thanks Joe for sharing your wisdom with us again.
steve
WardenWolf
member
And even though you would be hailed as a hero, you would still spend the next 20 years of your life in prison for carrying a gun on school campus. Don't you just love how our system works?
The Bushmaster
Member
My scenario...
If its a high school or lower. The "intruder" alarm sounds. All students to the back of the room farthest from the door and windows. Teacher checks round in chamber and stands by to repell intruder(s).
In a higher institute of learning..."Intruder" alarm sounds. All unarmed students to the back of the room farthest from the door and windows. Armed students and instructor check rounds in the chamber and take defensive positions in the room...
If its a high school or lower. The "intruder" alarm sounds. All students to the back of the room farthest from the door and windows. Teacher checks round in chamber and stands by to repell intruder(s).
In a higher institute of learning..."Intruder" alarm sounds. All unarmed students to the back of the room farthest from the door and windows. Armed students and instructor check rounds in the chamber and take defensive positions in the room...
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
I won't pass judgement on anyone's choices in such an incident, except to say that you should really consider the threat of friendly fire if you ever take direct action during one of these events. A number of posts have alluded to the idea of either taking the bad guy's gun, or carrying one into the school against policy.
Whether you were to end up with a gun because you were already carrying one, or because you somehow managed to disarm a bad guy, you should really consider the fact that having the weapon in your hand paints a target on you!
As a career police officer in a nasty urban environment, I can assure you that the adrenaline always goes way up when we are confronting violent armed suspects. An active school shooter scenario is about the most highly charged situation that any given officer would likely face in their career.
We go in hard on these deals, and we go in fast. So, if this situation were to play out as suggested in this thread, just imagine what would happen if we were clearing a hallway with a team of officers and all of a sudden we saw a person pointing a gun into a classroom from the hall!
Is this person killling someone? Are they clearing the room? Are they looking for more victims? Do I take the shot while I have the drop on them? Are they alone? Why are they in the school with a gun if they aren't one of us?
As a LEO, I CCW pretty much everywhere I go. It is actually department policy that I do so, even when off-duty. So, I've given some serious consideration to these issues in the past, if only to save myself in the future!
Personally, if I ever had to act in one of these incidents, my goal would be to take care of business, and then get that firearm out of my hand as fast as safely practical! Responding officers will only have a split second to decide if I'm a friend or foe, and I certainly don't want to be accidentally seen as the enemy in that very tense instant!
Just some food for thought! Carry on.
Whether you were to end up with a gun because you were already carrying one, or because you somehow managed to disarm a bad guy, you should really consider the fact that having the weapon in your hand paints a target on you!
As a career police officer in a nasty urban environment, I can assure you that the adrenaline always goes way up when we are confronting violent armed suspects. An active school shooter scenario is about the most highly charged situation that any given officer would likely face in their career.
We go in hard on these deals, and we go in fast. So, if this situation were to play out as suggested in this thread, just imagine what would happen if we were clearing a hallway with a team of officers and all of a sudden we saw a person pointing a gun into a classroom from the hall!
Is this person killling someone? Are they clearing the room? Are they looking for more victims? Do I take the shot while I have the drop on them? Are they alone? Why are they in the school with a gun if they aren't one of us?
As a LEO, I CCW pretty much everywhere I go. It is actually department policy that I do so, even when off-duty. So, I've given some serious consideration to these issues in the past, if only to save myself in the future!
Personally, if I ever had to act in one of these incidents, my goal would be to take care of business, and then get that firearm out of my hand as fast as safely practical! Responding officers will only have a split second to decide if I'm a friend or foe, and I certainly don't want to be accidentally seen as the enemy in that very tense instant!
Just some food for thought! Carry on.
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