Scope adjustment range

[dalepres]

In another thread, I asked about long and short trajectory. This comes out of that discussion - and was something I had planned on posting anyway.

Let's assume my scope is zeroed for 275 to 300 yards. Now I want to take a shot at 500 yards. The ballistics of the 30-06 indicate that there is about a 40 inch (hypothetical) drop for the difference in range.

Estimating how many inches high you are when you are looking at nothing but prarie grass covered mountain behind a dear is a tough thing to do. I did it once but it took me 10 shots and two reloads to get it right.

Assuming I have a quality scope, can I count clicks and adjust for 500 yards? What is the typical adjustment range, accuracy, and repeatability for a quality scope? When I look at scope specs, I don't see these items listed.

Thanks,

Dale

 

[Grumulkin]

1. If you know how tall the deer is you can estimate the holdover by the size of the deer. Nightforce scopes can also be obtained that are calibrated in mils or in MOA which would also help you determine holdover.

2. There are some scopes good enough that you could count clicks and adjust with them. Those with be Nightforce and the Leupold Mark 4.

Either way you do it, it takes a lot of practice to do it right. You also can't merely use some program to calculate the ballistics for your rifle. You need to actually shoot your rifle at long range and even then, differences in wind, barometric pressure, temperature, etc. can significantly affect your long range shooting calculations.

 

[rcmodel]

You shouldn't be shooting at deer 500 yards away anyway if a clean ethical kill is on your to-do list.

Learn to hunt and they will be in range.

rcmodel

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Don't forget the Leupold Mark 2 scopes...they are basically a Mark 4 without the side focus and MUCH cheaper ($619 for the Mark 2 6-18x40mm Tactical).

I can give you the "come ups" you are asking for, but first I need to know what bullet you are using, its BC, the muzzle velocity, scope height, and exact "zero range".

Grumulkin speaks the truth.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Typical adjustment is 40 MOA in a QUALITY scope...repeatability comes with a price...at least $500 - $600.

Leupold has the adjustment range in the tech specs on the website, Nikon has it for some of their long range scopes, Bushnell has it listed for some as well.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Dalepres...

"...when you are looking at nothing but prarie grass covered mountain behind a deer ".


Sure the scope companies will be glad to sell you a $1000 ultra-scope that may make it easier to hit something at a half-mile distant. But why not spend less than half that for a nice bright scope that works great at ethical distances?

The difficulty of making a 500yd. shot isn't the only reason to not bother with it. Suppose you actually make that 500yd. shot - see the deer hunch up a bit and then run off a ways and suddenly disappear into the grass.

Now you have to go find the deer - 500yds away - somewhere in the middle of acres and acres of country that all looks the same. That $1000 scope isn't going to help you find the deer.

As Grumulkin said - don't take the chart numbers for Gospel. Go shoot your rifle at different distances so you KNOW how it shoots with your chosen load(s).

Good luck !

 

[Sunray]

"...shouldn't be shooting at deer 500 yards..." Exactly. Not enough energy left with any bullet weight for a reliable kill. Even if there was about a 500 yard shot unless you have a great deal of wind doping experience. Bambi is a tiny target at 500 yards too.
"...behind a dear..." Behind a dear what?

 

[Grumulkin]

I would not debate the fact that a 500 yard shot at a deer is outside the capabilities of the vast majority of hunters. It is, however, a little ridiculous to think that there is "not enough energy left with any bullet weight for a reliable kill."

There are a wide variety of hunting cartridges and bullet weights that have plenty of energy left for a reliable kill on a deer at 500 yards and further. The tricky part is hitting the deer from that range in a vulnerable part of its body.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

He did not ask about his ethics or abilities...he asked about trajectory compensation.

I know I'm not the only one here that could EASILY make a 500 yard shot on a deer or a crow for that matter....come on guys, we all have our own ethics and abilities, but share the knowledge if you have it to share...its an easy question to give a "respectably accurate" answer to if we had the info I asked for in a previous post...500 yards is not an "extreme range" for a 30-06, and at only 500 yards wind IS NOT that much of a problem with a high BC 30 caliber bullet launched at around 2,700 fps (178 grain Hornady A-Max for example...BC is .495)...not much of a problem at all.

I love long range shooting...and I occasionally hunt that way, but I can also get close enough to smell the deer if I want to, several dozen bow kills to my credit...its the hunters choice, and there is nothing wrong with it, provided he/she makes darn sure that they can shoot as good at 500 - 800 yards, as the "average Joe" can at 200....its not that hard to do, it just takes good optics, an accurate rifle, and a shooter that knows their limitations.


And last but not least...a 30-06 will knock the socks off a deer at 1,300+ yards...clean kill...if the man behind the gun can do their part.

 

[1/4MOA]

a hunter's ability will determine wheter the shot is ethical or not. ever hunter knows what he or she is capable of.

I have no problem shooting a deer in calm conditions at 500 yards with 175g match kings out of my .308. but i also hit pie plates at 800yards regularly and have a ballistics chart taped to the side of my rifle. you start to understand ballistics and you are a more capable hunter. but it takes a lot of hours, a lot of ammo, a good rifle, and a lot of shooting. if you're average joe shooting a walmart gun, stalk up on him a close the distance.

in answer to dalepres question.....
the amount of clicks depends on your caliber, velocity, bullet weight, and ballistic coefient. too many varibles to answer but good optics is a must. repeatablitiy doesnt depend on the scope as much as it does the rifle or the shooter IMO. and when you say that you dont see those items list in scope abilties you kinda have to look for the hidden factors. ( is it a 1inch or a 30mm tude, normally the 30mm has more internal MOA adjustments allowing those longer shots.)

 

[Ridgerunner665]

To clarify...

When I said "repeatability"...I was referring to the scope clicks being the same every time...returning to "zero", I don't know of any variable power scopes that will do that more than a few times and still cost less than $500. There are a few fixed power 10X scopes that usually will though, the Tasco Super Sniper (over 100 MOA of elevation adjustment in that scope) is one popular example for around $275 or so.

1/4 MOA,
Good post and you're right on with that...but we used the term "repeatability" in 2 different ways.

 

[Sunray]

"...a little ridiculous to think..." Ok, except a 180 grain Scirocco™ Bonded. Other bullets don't have enough energy at 500 yards for a reliable kill.
"...wide variety of hunting cartridges and bullet weights..." Yep. No question, but not a .30-06.
"...Matchkings..." Those are target bullets. They're not made for hunting anything except maybe varmints. They don't expand.
"...a 30-06 will knock the socks off a deer at 1,300+ yards...clean kill..." Maybe if you got lucky and hit the deer in the head. That 180 grain Scirocco™ Bonded only has 1409 ft-lbs of energy at 500. And it drops 47.9" at 500 with a 200 yard zero.
An A-Max is a target bullet too. Not made for hunting.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Awww come off it already...
Hornady advertises the A-Max as a medium game hunting bullet that just happens to be accurate enough for target use.

1,409 ft.lbs....100 grain 243 loads don't have that much energy at 200 yards. Are you saying a 243 won't kill a deer at 200 yards?

47.9 inches of drop ain't nothing to be concerned with...that's what scope adjustment knobs are there for. Thats as simple as turning the elevation knob about 35 clicks "up" if its got 1/4" clicks...if there is no wind...send it. My 308 has drops a 165 grain bullet 380 inches at 1000 yards...and I can still hit a man size steel plate with boring regularity. Trajectory (drop) is easy...wind takes practice to overcome...if you're going to debate this, at least pick a valid argument.

If there is wind...say a 10 mph crosswind...about 16 clicks into the wind...send it.

I mean no offense...but it agitates me when people who know NOTHING about it say it should not be done or it can't be done...

500 yards is easy for anybody with the right equipment and some practice.

 

[dalepres]

Thanks for the response, Ridgerunner665. While I do not have your expertise, I was confident that a 500 yard shot was within the usable range for a 30-06.

Long range hunting is enough of a specialized sport that there are several websites dedicated solely to it.

I know that when I lived in Wyoming, shots like that were pretty common for elk hunting with a 30-06 - for others, not me. I never took an elk in the couple years I lived there. But even deer hunting there was not like hunting in the wooded plains with a 30-30 like it is here in Oklahoma.

Anyway, your response is exactly why I posed the question. If I am going to long-range hunt, I want to make sure what optics to buy and how to use them to become a reliable shooter at those kinds of ranges.

As several have said, it seems that, along with good tools, a lot of it will depend on practice and getting to know those tools. The nearest range to me where I can do 500+ yard shooting is almost 100 miles away but I'll have to invest the time before I head west hunting.

 

[dalepres]

47.9 inches of drop ain't nothing to be concerned with...that's what scope adjustment knobs are there for. Thats as simple as turning the elevation knob about 35 clicks "up" ifs its got 1/4" clicks...if there is no wind...send it.

Exactly the reason I posted my question in the first place. Thanks for the answer.

 

[dalepres]

when you say that you dont see those items list in scope abilties you kinda have to look for the hidden factors.

I finally had more luck looking at the manufacturers sites than I had previously had on the reseller sites.

Thanks.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Glad I was able to offer what little I know...feel free to PM me with questions either here or 1911auto forum, LongRangeHunting.com, SnipersHide, or 1911forum...same screen name on all of them...

There are some REALLY knowledgeable guys (on the subject of long range shooting) on SnipersHide and LongRangeHunting.com...several dimwits too.

I don't know it all either...I been practicing for 25 years, and I still find new tricks pretty often.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Sunray,
I've thought about it and I want to say this...Not directed at you exactly, but to THR in general.
Every time somebody here asks a question about extended range hunting...it gets turned into an ethics debate.

I like this forum and its atmosphere (99.9% of the time)...and I'm all for ethical hunting, but ethics depend on the individual and their ability and good ole common sense.

I agree that NOBODY should take 500 yard "pot shots" at game...under no circumstances.

But somebody that is trying to learn to do it the right way comes here, asks a question...and gets bombarded with everybody's idea of ethics...that's just not right IMO.

If a person is taking the time to ask questions and learn from people who have experience at it before they ever fire a shot...that is being ethical.

Unethical would be the dimwits that just start shooting way out there, without a clue of what they are doing and gut shoot a deer and then jump for joy because they hit it....that is no good at all and if I were present when something like that happened I would leave that dimwit laying there bruised and badly beaten with rifle that had a barrel that closely resembled the shape of a pretzel.

Anyway...what I'm trying to say is this...I'm all for ethics 110%...as long as it don't get in the way of the truth.

You will do more good by giving the correct answer to those type questions than you ever will by climbing on a soapbox and shouting...NO...DON'T DO IT.


I apologize to Sunray...I should not have been so "pointed" towards him in my earlier posts.


OK...I feel better know.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Dalepres...

Nothing at all wrong or "unethical" about learning to hit targets at long ranges. It's a fun sport (albeit expensive).

But long-range shooting at inanimate targets at known ranges from secure and maybe optimum positions is one thing - and long-range shooting of living game animals is another.

When the target changes from paper to flesh 'n blood, a host of new ethical questions (dilemmas) arises (like the one I illustrated in my previous post) and need to be addressed. And those 500yd. shots should not be taken at live game until the shooter has learned more than how to twist a scope knob.

The "ethical" message isn't really an ironclad "DON'T", but rather one of "There is a LOT to it and DON'T take such shots at live game until you KNOW you're going to harvest the animal humanely". That knowledge involves not only a lot of skill but a lot of good judgement too and that doesn't come in any box from the store.

Any facet of Hunting can be scrutinized for Ethics. Some people decry bowhunting, or trapping, or using recorded calls, or black powder, or (my favorite) handgunning, or long-distance shooting, or using small caliber weapons, or using radios, etc. etc. That's all to say that regardless of our chosen method - we ALL need to close ranks on keeping Ethics as a Priority because ALL of us get hurt by slob hunters.

We don't need to get too offended (or offensive) when someone raises legitimate ethical concerns - it's a chance to teach them the Ethics we have in place.

Good luck to you.

 

[1/4MOA]

Sunray..... shoot a deer with a 30 caliber matchking in a 175. it not only kills, it expands and does a ton of damage. not like a full metal jacket "punching holes" at.

 

[dalepres]

We don't need to get too offended (or offensive) when someone raises legitimate ethical concerns - it's a chance to teach them the Ethics we have in place.

Nor do we need to get too worked up when someone embarks on the road to learning how to long-range hunt and asks technical questions about it instead of just doing going out and taking the shot.

There are a lot of hunting scenarios where a 500+ yard shot is common: Prarie dog and other varmints, antelope, big horn sheep, caribou, etc. Less common but certainly common enough in its own right is elk and mule deer in the rockies. The 500 yard shot is not unethical when made by a qualified shooter. A 200 yard shot by someone who is not trained or experienced can result in a wounded animal just like a 500 yard shot or a 1000 yard shot. That's why I didn't create a thread about the ethics of the 500 yard shot but rather about the tools of the 500 yard shot.

Thanks to all those who provided technical assistance. For all those who want to discuss ethics, perhaps a different thread is in order.

 

[koja48]

Once you determine the exact mils to which your scope adjustment knobs are calibrated (readily determined at 100-yards using a 1" grid target), you can calculate/adjust accordingly at the desired range you are shooting (eg., 1/4" at 100 becomes 1/2" at 200, etc). Then, of course, practice at longer ranges. Clean kills at 500-yards are realistic with the proper cartridge. Bear in mind, however, that the group size consistently-maintained at 100-yards becomes larger at longer ranges.

 

[Shawnee]

"For all those who want to discuss ethics, perhaps a different thread is in order."

Any discussion/thread about Ethics is unpopular with some shooters/hunters and it's pretty certain that, if a such a thread were started, those people would quickly show up to heckle and protest the hunters/shooters who care about such matters. There would likely be much more heat than light in the "discussion" and all would end up with the "Ethics are a Personal Choice" conclusion to pacify those who insist on their individual right to reject the responsibility for, and the consequences of, their behavior.

 

[~z]

To get back to the topic at hand. If you do not have the adjustment in your scope, you can shim the rear base or install a canted base. I put a 20 min base on my rifle and it has extended my range considerably. Previously I was pegged out at 1325, now, I have yet to find the end, even out to 2K.
~z

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

If you are using "come ups" (scope clicks) rather than field estimation (your noggin and kentucky windage), in compensating for bullet drop, then you are definitely asking the *right question* about repeatability and "trueness" (trueness= does a supposed 1/4 minute of angle click ACTUALLY equal 1/4 minute?). To rely on clicks, and use a dead on hold, then you need a high-quality scope (expensive), since many cheaper scopes do NOT have the trueness/repeatability as advertised.

But having said that, I agree with Shawnee, just use your ethics and do not take a shot. I use a system of PBR and MPBR that will get me out 275 yards (with approx. 250 yard zero) with a dead-on hold, with high-speed bottle-necked rounds (such as .243 Win). Then, if it were a trophy deer, with little to no wind, and a good rest, then I would go a bit further (300 or so) with a "kentucky windage" estimated holdover. But I would never shoot at a range at which my holdover would be higher than "the top of the back" of the animal (which is roughly 10-12" over the center of the heart/lung intersection on most deer). I recommend such a "point N click" system, using an MPBR system. Then all you have to decide in the field is yes or no, is the deer 275 or less, or is it not? If it is, point n click and you have a deer, if it's a good hold. If not, you simply pass on the shot. Except in the very rare case of the trophy deer in ideal conditions, and then go to 300; maybe even 315 or so. A rangefinder is a must if you don't have a lot of experience at telling a 250 yard deer from a 300 yard deer - what the difference looks like to the naked eye.

500 yards? Hmmm, no way. Not unless I was on an actual bench set up in the field and the deer was bedded (and thus stationary), and I had some kind of accurized massive boomer, like a 7mm Dakota. It's just not ethical - that is an incredibly long ways.