Scopes vs. Red dot/holosights

[Exmasonite]

Hey everybody...

sorry if this is EXTREMELY remedial but i had a basic question.

people always talk about optics for their AR/M-16 variant. I have one and have been having issues with keeping a scope attached reliably. here's my question:

Scopes vs. non scopes (holosights/red dots)
What sort of groupings can you get w/ the non scopes compared to the scopes at distances 50-100 yds +.

My impression is that w/ a GOOD scope and proper attachment, you're looking at very small groups (<2" at 100 yds) or better.

Can the holosights/red dots achieve that? I understand the strengths of keeping both eyes open under tactical conditions. but are you more talking about minute of torso at 100 yds?

I'm not a proponent for one vs. the other. just looking for more informed opinions.

 

[C-grunt]

I believe the scopes give better groups for a couple reasons:
A. Magnification.
B. If I remember correctly, the dots on the holo sights are usually more than 2 moa. Its hard to get really good groups when the aiming point is that big.

The holo sights work fairly well at range though. In the Army we used the Aimpoint M68 and it was fairly easy to hit a silhoette target at 300 meters.

 

[Medusa]

Issue with red dots/ holos is the size of the dot. IF you want small groups the dot must be sub-moa, but this dot could be hard to see and use in fast-paced action. On the other hand, good clear dot could be several moa size, thus taking away the sub-moa accuracy. It's speed vs accuracy issue I'd say.

Scopes have fine crosshairs, giving good precision over wide range, but depending on magnification it's usage in fast combat - mostly CQB - could be questionable.

I'd say that if you keep the rounds in X in the reasonable defencive distances, say up to 100 yrds, the red dot/holo gets the job done, plus as you said, you can shoot with both eyes open and have good situational awareness. You can do it with low-powered scope too, but 1x magnification sight could be faster and more instincive to ordinary people.

 

[BozemanMT]

For inside of 150 yards or so, an Aimpoint or an Eotech is amazingly fast and more than precise enough.
From 100 to 500 yards an ACOG (3.5x, 4x, 5.5x) can do amazing things.
Beyond that you are in scope territory.

You need to experience one of the big three, you'll be amazed how fast and accurate they can be.

 

[Exmasonite]

thanks for all the info/insight. sounds like i definitely need to give a good "non-scope" a try.

given that i have a bushmaster AR-15 with an integral carry handle, are there any thoughts one what type of red dot/holo suit is better suited given the parallax issues?

thanks again for the info.

 

[EdLaver]

As far as mounting a red dot/holosight onto a carry handle AR....

I have seen AR carry handle owners use quad rails to mount EOTechs and Aimpoints onto the top rail. Another cheaper alternative (Quad Rails can be expensive) is to buy a seperate picatinny rail and mount it onto the top of the handguard along with your choice of red dot/holosight.

 

[BozemanMT]

No matter what optic you put on it, buy another upper, a flattop.
putting the optics on top of the carry handle works, but it makes it way too high and you can't get a good cheek weld and thus you can't repeat it.

Uppers are cheap and since they aren't the gun, (the lower is the gun), easy to ship.
Just get a flattop, you'll be much happier if you want optics.

 

[Zak Smith]

Consistency of sight picture is key to shooting small groups, not necessarily the size of the sighting elements.

One trick to shooting smaller targets with an Aimpoint is to turn down the brightness a click or two.

 

[Lebben-B]

I have seen AR carry handle owners use quad rails to mount EOTechs and Aimpoints onto the top rail. Another cheaper alternative (Quad Rails can be expensive) is to buy a seperate picatinny rail and mount it onto the top of the handguard along with your choice of red dot/holosight.

Mounting a pic rail to the hand guard IOT put a red dot sight on it is a bad idea. The hand guard has some play that would prevent you from getting a consistant shot group. A better idea is to get a cantilever mount that screws into the carrying handle. Then mount the sight forward of the carrying handle. This set up will also let you co-witness with the iron sights. ARMS and a few other companies make them.

Mike

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

impressed

with Eotech. Proper technique and repetition, practice, will do more for most shooters than fancy eq. My 2 cents is to practice dry firing and keep shooting with iron sights part time for practice of fundamentals. Scopes and fancy sight systems are awesome, and extend range, but if you plan on running around the bush much it's nice to have some sort of backup; see through mount, flip up or alternative irons for holosight, etc.
EOTECH
I was skeptical about the Eotech and just got one about 1 month ago. Let me tell you it is worth the price. For me, it was also important to go "AA" battery because those are easily charged with solar hand chargers so no worries ever about battery life. The red dot is 1/4 MOA and it can be turned WAY down for low light shooting. I like keeping both eyes open, I love seeing the area around the target, I love using iron sights through the Eotech with it turned off, I love that it's shielded like a tank, its waterproof, I sound like a salesman....
Good luck, hope that helps some.

ST

 

[Thin Black Line]

For inside of 150 yards or so, an Aimpoint or an Eotech is amazingly fast and more than precise enough.
From 100 to 500 yards an ACOG (3.5x, 4x, 5.5x) can do amazing things.
Beyond that you are in scope territory.

+1, but also add Trijicon Reflex II with chevron for <150.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

What is the cheapest ACOG you can get?

 

[BozemanMT]

ACOG's run about $1000 new, about $750 and up used
(and used is fine, nothing happens to them)
there are about a 1000 different kinds of ACOG's
worth every penny.

 

[wally]

Consistency of sight picture is key to shooting small groups, not necessarily the size of the sighting elements.

One trick to shooting smaller targets with an Aimpoint is to turn down the brightness a click or two.

And another is that with a red dot you look thru the dot and focus on the target unlike with irons where you focus on the front sight or a scope whre you focus on the image of the reticle which for maximum precision (Adjustable Objective) should be in the same plane as the target image.

AO scope are slow but again its the other extreame of the speed vs. accuracy tradeoff.

--wally.