Scouts

[Pistol Ranch]

I have seen scout rifles in the Gun magazines for a few years now.
I fail to understand why anyone would want one..To me, the scope mounted halfway down the barrel looks like a wart on a toad.
I also do not know why they are called "Scouts". Tonto's horse was named scout and that horse was considerably better looking.

So give me a bit of education...why would anyone go for a scout rifle

P.R.

 

[GCBurner]

Obviously the OP is not a fan of the late Jeff Cooper, or his "Scout Rifle" concept.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Cooper

I have a great deal of respect for SOME of Jeff Coopers thoughts about firearms and their use.
A little research will reveal that there are other gun writers who are not particularly enamored with the scout rifle concept..

Some of the complaints listed were:
1. Annoying muzzle blast (due to short barrels)
2. Heavy recoil (due to light weight/large calibers)
3. Balance issues (due to the forward placement of the scope)

It is my considered opinion that Mr. Cooper wanted to develop a gun concept that he would be identified with, in the same manner that Jack O'Conner is identified with the Winchester .270.

History will reveal who had the better idea.

P.R.

 

[owlhoot]

I believe the scope is mounted forward of the receiver so that the shooter, firing with both eyes open, is able to see what is going on outside the scope's FOV. The shooter is limited to the scope's FOV when the scope is mounted further back and the eye is near the scope. This might be useful in combat or if being attacked by a pack of ravening hyenas. Nevertheless, I personally don't care for the forward mounted scope.

The shorter barrel is a blessing in heavy brush country. I am not bothered by increased muzzle blast. The idea of a detachable magazine is useful in combat situations, but of limited advantage to the hunter. And if there is much walking to be done, the lighter weight is worth the increase in recoil. I think the old Enfield jungle carbine is about perfect as a scout rifle with the addition of a good peep sight.

 

[natman]

I have seen scout rifles in the Gun magazines for a few years now.
I fail to understand why anyone would want one..To me, the scope mounted halfway down the barrel looks like a wart on a toad.
I also do not know why they are called "Scouts". Tonto's horse was named scout and that horse was considerably better looking.

So give me a bit of education...why would anyone go for a scout rifle

P.R.

If you want the answer to arrive via the high road, you might want to leave out the useless negative comments and just ask your question.

What's the appeal of a scout rifle?

Light, easy to carry, fast target acquisition. These things are very appealing to those who hunt on foot covering large areas. Some people judge a rifle on how it works instead of how it looks. It's really a question of horses for courses. People who hunt from a truck or a stand aren't going to appreciate the light weight and will only notice the recoil. A scout rifle may not be for you. Believe it or not, that's OK.

 

[35 Whelen]

So give me a bit of education...why would anyone go for a scout rifle

That enough answers?

A little research will reveal that there are other gun writers who are not particularly enamored with the scout rifle concept..

Where exactly did you read this? Don't tell me you don't remember please.

Some of the complaints listed were:
1. Annoying muzzle blast (due to short barrels)

So then the same gun writers would have disliked Remingtons Model 7's and 788 carbines (18 1/2" bbl'), Remington 742's and 7600's in carbine length, the new Remington 750's, 600's, 660's, Rugers Ultra Light line as well as their RL's, RLS's, and RSI's (18 1/2" bbls.)...oh heck, let's just go ahead and say that these writers wouldn't like ANY carbine...

2. Heavy recoil (due to light weight/large calibers)

Note the photos of my daughter beginning at age 11, having killed 3 or 4 deer with this "heavy recoiling" rifle...(It's a .308 by the way)

3. Balance issues (due to the forward placement of the scope)

Now THAT is FUNNY!!! Why? Because these same gun writers (if indeed they exist) can be found in the glossy paged hunting magazine posing with lightweight bolt rifles wearing enormous scopes. Everyone knows you can't sit in a deer stand and watch a feeder 100 yds. away with any scope using an objective less than 50mm in diameter. You know...those rigs that look like the rifle is attached to the scope.....

It is my considered opinion that Mr. Cooper wanted to develop a gun concept that he would be identified with, in the same manner that Jack O'Conner is identified with the Winchester .270.

Who cares? I own many rifles that Mr. O'Connor would have found appealing, but my Scout rifle is my favorite, most productive hunting tool.

35W

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Whelen

Nice set of pictures but not one shows a 15 round clip (part of the scout concept..i.e the need for rapid reloading).
Articles I have seen were in Guns and Ammo (By a policeman who was issued one) and by Dave Petzal..There are plenty of blogs on the net as well..

Problem is, I grew up "old school" i.e. make the FIRST shot count. Something I am VERY comfortable with using a plain old Winchester 70 and conventional scope.

For civil unrest, I would prefer something more like a semi-automatic weapon.

A lot of people who have never been to Texas expect to see a cowboy or an oil well on every street corner. When it takes a couple days, just to drive across the state, they change their mind!!

P.R.

 

[courtgreene]

So, did you actually want your question answered? It certainly does not seem so. If you did, I'd say that it has been answered quite well. I see no reason for the argument that has ensued. If you don't like them, don't use them. I personally like them because setting one up gives me more cool stuff to do to project guns. And I'm not going to force you to shoot it either, so let's all just calm down and stop the belligerence.

 

[Ky Larry]

Why do some people like red dots, single shot pistols, muzzle loading shot guns, or extreme long range rim fire shooting? Different strokes for different folks. As the folks in the photos show, it's hard to argue with meat in the freezer. Shoot what you like and please, lets stop with the insults.

 

[Sam1911]

[Mod Talk: As a favor to all of you, I've removed various comments that were completely off topic and which misrepresented some of y'all's home states as breeding grounds for uncivil, rude people who weren't capable or confident enough in their own beliefs to ask or answer a question without insulting others in the process. Let's keep this on the High Road.]

 

[wulfbyte]

Nice set of pictures but not one shows a 15 round clip (part of the scout concept..i.e the need for rapid reloading).
P.R.

I do not recall nor have I been able to find any reference to a specific round count for a magazine for a scout concept rifle. I do seem to recall Col. Cooper having a preference for internal, stripper clip fed magazines as they are less likely to become lost or damaged and yet still retain reasonable reload speeds under duress. The forward mounted scope is so located in part because it allows unhindered access to the action for stripper clips, manual reloading or to clear a stoppage.

I think that many people who don't like "scout" rifles are unfamiliar with the concept and particularly with the role of the rifle and the scout as defined by Col. Cooper. This has been discussed many times in many places, both pro and con and perhaps has become somewhat removed from the original conversation about and development of the scout concept rifle.

In short, the scout concept attempts to be a distillation of rifle technology and techniques that allows for the widest range of shooting activities without making any changes to the rifle itself. For any particular task there will be a rifle (or a dozen) that do it better than a scout, but the scout allows you to take your rifle from task to task to task, without modification, and perform reasonably well. In the world of rifles, it is a tool of supreme utility.

There are lots of places on the internet with good information on scout rifles, perhaps this one will do for a starter:
http://jeffcoopersscoutrifles.blogspot.com/

 

[GCBurner]

If I recall Cooper's original concept correctly, it wasn't designed primarily as a hunting rifle, but as a military weapon for patrolling by long range scout snipers, who needed an accurate, lightweight rifle with greater range than the usual "battle carbine."

 

[ball3006]

I use scout mounted scopes because I have them on my vintage military rifles that I do not want to permenately modify. That exercise would turn a 500 dollar rifle into a 150 dollar rifle. I do not have a commercial rifle sit up with a scout scope. If you don't like a scout scope, don't buy/use one. If anyone doesn't like my preference, too bad. If you don't like recoil or muzzle blast, shoot a smaller caliber. Some of us like a big bang with alot of muzzle flash, aka the short Mosin Nagants. High magazine capacity is not an issue with me. If I cannot hit what I am shooting at with a couple shots, I give up or duck and run, depending on the situation at the time. So, pick what floats your boat and have fun shooting.....chris3

 

[Art Eatman]

From a military standpoint, a scout has failed in his mission if he's forced into a firefight. A scout's deal is to avoid discovery. In essence, he's hunting humans to observe, not shoot. Hi-cap mags and fast reloads are not important--although reloading via stripper clip is quite rapid.

In competition events at Gunsite of the "shoot and scoot" type, those who used Scout rifles scored highest. Target acquisition is faster than with conventionally-mounted scopes--AFTER (for most people) re-training in the use. (I don't particularly want to try to get re-train after sixty years of using conventionally-mounted scopes.)

While the recoil of a .308 from a seven-pound rifle could be disturbing at the bench, in the field it should be no problem.

For all that I don't care much for the Steyr version, it meets Cooper's criteria. This new Ruger seems to me to be in error with its flash-hider dealie, but that appears to be a marketing thing for the "tactical" crowd.

IMO, from the standpoint of a general-purpose rifle, Cooper's criteria are valid.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Answers

I got my answers..Sorry to ruffle anyones feathers. Shoot what you like

Have a fine day!!

P.R.

 

[35 Whelen]

Nice set of pictures but not one shows a 15 round clip (part of the scout concept..i.e the need for rapid reloading).

Have you actually read Mr. Coopers criteria for a Scout rifle? If not, here it is:

By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

Nothing here about a 15 round clip. I think what happened with the Scout concept is people began mounting forward scopes on rifles such as the M1A, and people automatically assumed that the Scout rifle was some sort of battle rifle, which obviously it is not.
From my point of view and experience, it the THE most practical rifle I own. Not the best at any ONE thing, but it'll do just about ANYthing.

35W

P.S.- I find it a little disturbing that Moderators can and do edit the posts of others to "fit the rules". A little...no a lot like censorship. Surely there are other, better ways to keep the threads civil. (Wonder if my post script will get edited?)

 

[FoMoGo]

Would you rather them delete the whole post to keep it in the rules... or ban the person?
As much as I love my Rights... people have to realize that a message board is another persons property, and treat it as such.
Act as if you were a guest in someones house and there should be little need for "censorship".

Trust me, I run a forum... and this one is a lot more behaved due to the rules... and maturity of most of the membership.


Jim

 

[35 Whelen]

Would you rather them delete the whole post to keep it in the rules... or ban the person?

I would much rather be banned or temporarily suspended. To me that's more of a natural consequence. Much like being a member of a gun club; follow the rules, or get kicked out.
I lead a band on weekends and that is and has always been the policy; act right, no drugs and play like I ask, or lose your job. Quite effective.
I personally like the way Art Eatman handles things with a warning or by locking the thread.

Regards,
35W

 

[El Tejon]

To me, the scope mounted halfway down the barrel looks like a wart on a toad.

I don't think looks are what are at issue.

The forward mounted optic is to aid the snap shot allowing both eyes open and to clear the action so that the weapon may be loaded without interference from the optic.

Some of the complaints listed were:
1. Annoying muzzle blast (due to short barrels)
2. Heavy recoil (due to light weight/large calibers)
3. Balance issues (due to the forward placement of the scope)

One thing we can count on when it comes to guns is that the subjective is objective.

It is my considered opinion that Mr. Cooper wanted to develop a gun concept that he would be identified with

Cooper grabbed the bit and ran like a horse with barn fever on lots of stuff, but that was his personality, not any fame seeking.

Cooper always said that there was nothing new under the sun. Cooper always mentioned that the Scout Rifle came from the Mannlicher, Winchester M94, the Mauser Zf41 and Les Bowman's use of the Remington 600. Cooper always gave credit where it was due, e.g. the "CW" sling (actually an old British concept).

Nice set of pictures but not one shows a 15 round clip (part of the scout concept..i.e the need for rapid reloading).

Where did this come from?

Cooper advocated a magazine cut off for the use of "shoot one, load one". He did write about the preference of stripper clips for rapid reloading.

On the other hand, both Brent Clifton of Clifton Arms in Texas and Robar did use M14 magazines in making custom Scout Rifles. It was never a "requirement" but some guys had this done and used the 5 or 10 round M1A mags.

Problem is, I grew up "old school" i.e. make the FIRST shot count. Something I am VERY comfortable with using a plain old Winchester 70 and conventional scope.

And Jeff Cooper wrote, extensively, of the William Tell visualization that the shooter must have.

I believe that if you read Cooper and his thoughts on his Scout Rifle concept you will find that there seems to be a lot of confusion in the gun shop. There's nothing new to the Scout Rifle as it is, in the phrase of Cooper, "incremental stackup" to achieve a goal of a general purpose rifle.

As guns are like hand tools this is aking to making a hammer a tool for everyting (for me it is).

 

[langloisandy]

I am a bit of a Scout Rifle fan myself, I run the Scout Forum at http://www.scoutrifle.org and make Ching Slings at my shop, http://www.andysleather.com stop in to the Scout Forum and see what people are doing with their rifles!

Andy

 

[El Tejon]

And very fine slings they are, Andy!

 

[Al Thompson]

Yep, got two of Andy's slings myself. One on a Scout and one on a M1A.

As regards the Scout concept, it works, but IMHO it's more of a specialized rifle than realized. Here in South Kackalacky, the optic compromises the rifles effectiveness in low light, specifically hunting in the late afternoon.

Other than that issue, my M600 Remington as built by Jim Brockman is a very handy rifle.

 

[BikerRN]

I like my Scout Rifle as a general purpose, "handy" in the truck, carry it everywhere rifle. It is not the rifle I want for making longer shots on game animals, which is very common here.

Thus I mounted a traditional scope on my rifle for next years deer season. I know, it's a long ways off, but I need to practice. What I like about Ruger's version is the adaptability. In five or ten minutes I can have a scout scope, red dot, or traditional scope on my rifle to fill a variety of roles. The Scout Rifle concept, as envisioned by Col. Cooper seems to embody that ideal, to a point.

To say that the Col. and I might disagree on how far an animal should be shot from, judging from what I've read, might be accurate. Around here longer shots are the norm, so I opt for a more traditional scope for those task. Now when calling bears in things can get fast and furious quickly, and the Scout Rifle, with a Scout Scope or a red Dot, seems to be the ticket.

Of course if I was willing to stalk my game, and not be so lazy, I wouldn't have to make those longer shots. I noticed that Steyr even had a traditional scope mounted on a Scout Rifle. That shows versatility and adaptability, which I consider good qualities at this stage of my life. I could be wrong, but I suspect the Col. was dogmatic in his definition of a Scout Rifle and wouldn't consider my version to be a Scout.

I will use what works for me. Sometimes that's a Scout Rifle and sometimes it's just a compact rifle.

BikerRN

 

[Dr T]

The scout in my collection is a Ruger Frontier 308. The current favored load is a Hornady Custom 165 gr. interlock. With this the apparent recoil is substantially less than my pet 180 gr. load for my 30-06 No.1 RSI. I tend to use both guns for about the same purpose: Hunting in areas that has a mixture of heavy brush and open shooting lanes (Texas) or meadows (Colorado). There is a substantial overlap in the performance and handling, with the No. 1 getting the nod if I feel that I need the heavier load.

Here is my comparison

Weight: The No. 1 (with a 4 x 40 Burris signature feels heavier in the hand. It probably is actually heavier, but I have not weighed them.

Handling: With a Burris scout scope mounted on the Frontier, the guns are nearly equally handy. This is important since the RSI is one the most "pointable" rifle I have ever used.

Ease of loading/Unloading: No. 1 is definitely better. (If the Frontier had a clip rather than a hinged floor plate, this would be a bit closer)

Ease of making a follow up shot: I would expect it to be faster with the Frontier, but, fortunately, I haven't needed any during my hunting.

Optics: For target acquistion, I put the two guns about equal. The big fixed power, conventionally mounted Burris on the RSI is a better piece of glass, however. In fact, upon consideration, I feel that the size of the objective is a big advantage when hunting an area that may be, in general, very brightly lit but with the game hiding in the bushes. I for those conditions where I am in the bright light and the game is not, I will always need to do the specific game identification (i.e. buck or doe, spike or more mature, quality of rack, etc., when using the scout scope I have always learned that I need to check everything with binoculars (Unless it is standing broadside in an open area that is well lit 125 yards away or less). Trying to distinguish between a spindly whitetail deer antler tine and a mesquite branch with the scout scope is difficult at 40 yards, much less 100.

Following game after the shot: The Frontier gets the nod. It is a lot easier to see which way it jumped when both eyes are open and the scope subtends a smaller angle in your vision.

Precision Shot placement on game: RSI due to the better optics.

Bench accuracy: The Frontier.

Any shot over 265 yards: NEITHER. If I expect to be doing that, I will have my 270 Win or 300 Weatherby--but that is another comparison.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Quote:I don't think looks are what are at issue.
Thats why some folks go ugly early!!

P.R.