Seat and Crimp in One Station?

[Doublehelix]

When I added the Mr. Bullet Feeder (MBF) to my XL650, I ended up losing my powder check die, which is not an ideal situation for me. Yeah, I check every case visually, but there have been a few times where I will look up at the bullet or case feeder mirror to check for stock, and a case or two will sneak though here and there.

Bottom line, I would prefer not to debate the need or lack thereof of the powder check die. I like having it there.

But... in order to use both the MBF and the powder check die on my XL650, I would have to seat and crimp in one station. I have always heard that this is a no-no.

There is a thread over at AFDC where they are discussing the MBF, and this same topic came up, and I would love hear what the collective wisdom here at THR thinks.

DAA has a modified Lee die that does both seat & crimp.

Pros and cons of this technique?

Thanks.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Depends on which cartridge and/or bullet type.

I only crimp and seat in one step on rimless rounds if I am using a jacketed bullet. Cast or coated bullets run the risk if scraping off material at the very end of the ram stroke. A guy could probably get away with it when using plated bullets, but I dont. I still do it separately. If I was in a position like yours, needing the room, I'd probably give it a shot though.

Revolver loads with a deep canelure to roll crimp into? I always seat and crimp simultaneously. 100% of the time. With proper die setup there is very little chance of bullet damage.

 

[Zendude]

I have never used a separate crimp die for my pistol and revolver loads. I use copper plated bullets mostly and sometimes FMJ. I just remove the bell from the expander die. The die will do a roll crimp if you want one with lead bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

Depends on which cartridge and/or bullet type.

Yep.

A taper crimp on an auto caliber? No problem, properly done it won't hurt jacketed, plated, coated, or lead.

A roll crimp with a jacketed bullet with a proper cannelure (Not a fake on that is no more than roll marks), or lead or coated bullet with a good crimp groove? No problem.

 

[George P]

I would have to seat and crimp in one station. I have always heard that this is a no-no.

And where did you hear this nonsense?

I have used a single stage, Dillon progressive and now a Hornady progressive and have ALWAYS seated and crimped with the one die. Never an issue in over 35 years.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

It's standard suggestion from back in the day-seat and crimp at the same time. That's then this is now. This is no big deal if you have a progressive press but you need three or four die sets You can crimp separately with your bullet seater by readjusting same. Remember to back off your bullet seating screw. Also, make sure you seating die stays clean. Stick with what ever floats your boat.

 

[mstreddy]

I seat and crimp in one step on all of my cartridges.

 

[cheygriz]

Seating and crimping in separate dies is ideal.

However, a careful loader who properly adjusts his dies, and makes sure bottleneck rifle cases are the same length will have no trouble turning out good ammo with single stage seat/crimp.

I did it for many years. Today, I've gotten lazy and always want the easy way.

 

[Whiterook808]

I have loaded thousand of rounds of .38, 9mm, 45ACP and 44Mag on my old 3 hole Lee deluxe turret press. It works just fine. I didn't crimp at a separate station until I upgraded to the Dillon 550b twenty years ago. Follow the instructions to setup the die properly and you are good to go.

 

[reddog81]

Assuming you can adjust your dies correctly, seating and crimping should be doable and the preferred method for many cartridges. Like others have mentioned knowing the cartridges and bullets in question would allow for a more complete answer

 

[Steve in PA]

This coming Christmas will be 28 years of reloading to include all kinds of handgun and rifle calibers. All seating and crimping of handgun rounds has been done at the same time using the RCBS single stage press. I don't crimp rifle rounds.

 

[Walkalong]

A couple of older posts about crimping.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-crimp-in-two-stages.623417/#post-7699828

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/universal-clays-and-357.511309/#post-6354182

Seated and crimped in one step in a Hornady seater.

 

[George P]

This coming Christmas will be 28 years of reloading to include all kinds of handgun and rifle calibers. All seating and crimping of handgun rounds has been done at the same time using the RCBS single stage press. I don't crimp rifle rounds.

I am at ~35 doing the same thing. I had a Dillon for a bit, and it was OK - too many primer feed issues)and I JUST got a LNL on a promo deal and so far it is good - BUT changing cartridges is a PITA compared to a single stage, so this is definitely a batch processing thing. I still have the RCBS Jr, and that is strictly for rifles and low volume pistol - NEVER an issue. Sometimes KISS wins out over automation

 

[cfullgraf]

I dont have any issue seating and crimping in the same die but when I got into reloading circa 1980, my 45 ACP dies had a roll crimp in the seater die so I purchased a taper crimp die. While taper crimp seater dies were available, they were few and far between. The taper crimp only die was an easily obtainable option.

I just got into the habit of seating and crimping in separate steps.

It is also one of the reasons that I re-size cases on the progressive presses at a different time as reloading and I prime off the press. It frees up stations for other purposes.

But, if I used the progressive press as the manufacturers designed it to be used, I'd seat and crimp in the same station.

 

[GW Staar]

When I added the Mr. Bullet Feeder (MBF) to my XL650, I ended up losing my powder check die, which is not an ideal situation for me. Yeah, I check every case visually, but there have been a few times where I will look up at the bullet or case feeder mirror to check for stock, and a case or two will sneak though here and there.

Bottom line, I would prefer not to debate the need or lack thereof of the powder check die. I like having it there.

But... in order to use both the MBF and the powder check die on my XL650, I would have to seat and crimp in one station. I have always heard that this is a no-no.

There is a thread over at AFDC where they are discussing the MBF, and this same topic came up, and I would love hear what the collective wisdom here at THR thinks.

DAA has a modified Lee die that does both seat & crimp.

Pros and cons of this technique?

Thanks.

To be honest, this subject is exactly why I was intrigued enough by the idea of 7 stations to actually fork out the money for a Pro Chucker 7! I was perfectly happy with my 5 station Pro 2000, except for the inability to have both.....a powder check station and separate seat and crimp dies. And I can testify that I like the extra stations so much that I have even forgotten my gripe that RCBS did away with the tank-like Iron Pro 2000 and replaced it with Aluminum presses!

Yet when I was limited by 5 stations, I got by just fine by making a video powder check work right off the charging station, between stations using a micro-video camera and a 5" monitor mounted to the bullet feeder support. It works best where there is room to stick the video camera along the circular station line of the press where you can see all the way to the primer flash hole. That worked for the Pro 2000, but perhaps not quite so easy with some of the other progressives?

Now that I have seven stations, loading pistol or rifle, I can easily have a powder check station AND have separate seat and crimp stations, AND a bullet feeder and even an "M" die after the sizer. I could add any commercial powder check die or lock out die easily, but I still really like the video version. So I just mounted a cheap Chinese bore scope to an old sizing die in one of the 7 stations and it worked even better than on the Pro 2000! I like the big 5" screen 18 inches from my face.....where I can't ignore a double charge or squib load.....ever. For less than $50 if you can spare an old rifle sizer you're not using.

Why would I add an "M" die? So I don't have to over-flare the cases to make bullet feeder drops stick the bullets firmly and straight!

This is what you see of the .308 case shown in the second picture below......can't miss it unless you are asleep. You can see the reflection of me taking the picture.....that shows how intended.



On your 5 station presses you might try to find a spot to mount one between stations....close enough to the circle line to see inside yet not interfere with the press stroke.

 

[PhillySoldier]

I seat n crimp in one station without any problems. Im also pretty thorough in constantly running different ransom rest tests of my reloads and have seen no issues regarding using a 2in1 die.

 

[jmorris]

This is why I use GSI bullet feeders when I can (they feed and seat at the same station, #4 on the 650).

I seat and crimp in two steps because I can adjust either without messing up the other but I combine the two when I have to. Like use a bullet dropper die and want to keep powder check.

This helps get me set quicker, I can see exactly how much I am moving both the die and seating plug vs sneaking up on the right settings. Like add .005” of crimp, lowering the die and then subtract .005” backing the seating stem out.

 

[Doublehelix]

Thanks to everyone for their help and great feedback.

More Info:

I use my MBF for .40 S&W (coated lead), .45ACP (coated SWC lead and FMJ RN), and 9mm (FMJ HP, plated RN, FMJ RN).

I used to use a Lee FCD, but have ditched that, and now use a Dillon taper crimp die for all 3 calibers.

Does anyone know if the DAA seat/crimp die is a taper crimp? Not a lot of detail in the product description.

I have a small camera setup that I have been planning to install on my press for a while, and I agree that this is helpful, but I would still like some physical check in place.

 

[PhillySoldier]

Yes, I use the DAA seat/crimp taper die. No problems at all. I'll take all the extra dummy proofing safety checks that I can get.

 

[Skgreen]

but I would still like some physical check in place.

I really like my RCBS lockout die.

It's not the cheapest 'powder check' die.
I find it easier to set out of the press than in the press. (A little learning curve, but not bad)
It's main purpose is to detect double charges or squibs. (Not intended to detect small variances in charge volume)
I believe it's only suitable for pistol loads, and not for rifle.
Other than that, it's a 'set it and forget it' affair.

 

[Doublehelix]

Yes, I use the DAA seat/crimp taper die. No problems at all. I'll take all the extra dummy proofing safety checks that I can get.

Thanks, that is great to hear. I might order one caliber and see how it goes.

I really like my RCBS lockout die.

It's not the cheapest 'powder check' die.
I find it easier to set out of the press than in the press. (A little learning curve, but not bad)
It's main purpose is to detect double charges or squibs. (Not intended to detect small variances in charge volume)
I believe it's only suitable for pistol loads, and not for rifle.
Other than that, it's a 'set it and forget it' affair.

Yes, that is the same die that I have always used. I prefer the lockout rather than the audible alarm. I have one for every caliber that I load.

 

[Charliefrank]

I must be getting old as this is the first I've heard about seating and crimping in two different steps.
I've never heard of a powder checking die either. I've always just visually checked and weighed a few random ones.
I've never used a progressive though, maybe that's why.

 

[jmorris]

I've never heard of a powder checking die either.

They are a device that makes sure your powder charge is there. They allow a device to alert or stop when a case has a high or low charge. So can even detect small changes in case volume.

 

[gwpercle]

Seating and taper crimping is not a problem once you get dies adjusted properly to do it.
Revolver rounds with cast lead bullets and deep crimp grooves where a heavy roll crimp is used benifits from seperate seating then roll crimp because at the end the roll crimp gets tight on the bullet but its still going deeper into the case...this can cause some lead to be shaved by the mouth and trapped in the crimp groove, shooting the bullet deposits some lead. Also if the crimp has a tight grip on the bullet and it's still moving downward the case will buckle.
It's not that you can't seat and roll crimp in one operation, you can but the dies have to be adjusted just exactly right...the bullet must not be going down when the crimp has closed on the bullet.
New reloaders , and some old, have trouble getting these settings just right , it takes a bit of doing and you have to know what's going on .
Don't bet your life on electronic gadgets and gizmos, use your common sense and eyeballs to check everything ...twice!
Gary

 

[Walkalong]

Seating and taper crimping is not a problem once you get dies adjusted properly to do it.

Yep.

Revolver rounds with cast lead bullets and deep crimp grooves where a heavy roll crimp is used benifits from seperate seating then roll crimp because at the end the roll crimp gets tight on the bullet but its still going deeper into the case..

But that is the definition of not adjusted properly.