Secession in the US

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What are the legal challenges needed to be overcome in order to make it happen? I know many in Northern CA want to break away from the South, many in upstate NY want to break away from being dominated by NYC and LI, and Killington VT wants to join NH.

I dount any govt will sit by and watch people and land under their control go away, but if it was possible we'd have essentially a market solution to govt tyranny, as not only people would be able to move but pieces of land would no longer be under their control as well. Some states might find themselves rapidly shrinking of they dont get their act together, trying to get a dole at the expense of a geographical minority would be a thing of the past.

I love the idea but I think it has precious little chance of happening due to Federal intervention. What do you think?
 
See the US Constitution, Article IV, Section 3.

"New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."

California would have to consent to giving up Northern California. The new state would also require consent of the US Congress as well as the President.

Not likely to happen.
 
Ok, that pretty much puts the kibosh on new states as the feds would not want to disrupt any power balance that may occur if the Senate were to gain new members, but what is to stop an area to seceed from one state and join with an already existing state?

I dont mean that they would be seceeding from the "Union" (it didnt work out too well the first time), only that they'd be seceeding from that particular state and joining an already existing state.
 
:scrutiny: I was thinking, hey, Glockler is sharper then that, then :uhoh: , apparently I am not.

Yes, annexation is possible. Utah is trying to negotiate away a portion of Arizona which is not connected to Arizona via roads (they liked to draw really straight lines out here). The entire "strip" area relies on Utah for services. Arizona HP must drive considerable distances just to patrol the highways, etc.

So, as a matter oc convenience, negotiations are ongoing.
 
Glocker, my man...

You've gotta remember the rules of the game:

1. You cannot win.

2. You cannot tie.

3. You cannot quit.


I dispute the final rule, but, outside of that....
 
I'm pretty sure this has been tried already. It didn't work out (though we gave it our best).

Note that at the time, the secession of the Commonwealth of Virginia from the United States was enough to fight a war over, but the secession of present-day West Virginia from the Commonwealth of Virginia was no big deal.

Although in retrospect, that particular eventuality was probably for the best :D

The division of states really shouldn't be easily allowed, as if a particular party dominated a particular state, it could subdivide that state in order to gain control of the Federal Senate.
 
It seems to me that states have bought and sold territory with each other in the past. IIRC, the little piece of Pennsylvania that touches Lake Erie was purchased from the state of New York.
 
Secession, when it comes, will not come in bits and pieces; nor will it come through extant state boundaries. This country is way too polarized philosophically for either traditional Party to govern. There is no room to compromise on certain fundamental issues that color the entire flavor of a polity. Nor can the Supreme Court speak for all Americans any more.

It may not end up being secession, by the way, but rather expulsion.

Just my opinion...
 
And don't forget the money

And who owns North Kali? People you say? Well, maybe "technically", but the banks and money folks have all the mortgages, which were made under Kali law... I can only imagine the panic those folks would go through if they really thought PRNKali was a reality...

And the government, will anyone please think of the government... all those property tax dollars gone... never happen.
 
This might have been discussed here before. I apologize if it has. Could this actaully work? Any one know? Last I heard, several other western states had similiar legislature pending, but I have no further details. Anyone have an update?


---------------------------


Arizona Prepares For
Secession From US
By Julie Foster
WorldNetDaily.com
1-14-4


An Arizona state legislative committee has approved a resolution calling for the dissolution of the federal government in the event that it abolishes the U.S. Constitution, declares martial law or confiscates firearms -- scenarios some say are not unrealistic. Critics of the resolution, however, call the measure a "total waste of time."

Rep. Karen Johnson, a Mesa Republican and chair of the House Committee on Federal Mandates and States' Rights, authored the resolution which the committee approved 3-2. Only the committee's vice-chair, Republican Rep. Gail Griffin, abstained from voting.

Specifically, House Concurrent Resolution 2034 outlines the origin of the United States, emphasizing the sovereignty of the states and their constitutional right to "establish a new federal government for themselves by following the precedent established by Article VII, Constitution of the United States, in which nine of the existing thirteen states dissolved the existing Union under the Articles of Confederation and automatically superceded the Articles."

It also articulates constitutional violations committed by the federal government as justification for the measure, saying "... the fifty current principals, or signatories, to the [Constitution] have done well in honoring and obeying it, yet the federal agent has, for decades, violated it in both word and spirit. The many violations of the Constitution of the United States by the federal government include disposing of federal property without the approval of Congress, usurping jurisdiction from the states in such matters as abortion and firearms rights and seeking control of public lands within state borders," says the resolution.

By adopting HRC 2034, Arizona states its intention to dissolve the current federal government with the approval of 34 other states and, in essence, start over. Participating states would re-ratify and re-establish the present Constitution "as the charter for the formation of a new federal government, to be followed by the election of a new Congress and President and the reorganization of a new judiciary," in keeping with the original intent of the "founding fathers." Individual members of the military will return to their respective states and report to the governor until a new president is elected.

In addition, each state will assume a prorated portion of the national debt and will own all land within its borders. After the new government is formed, the remaining 15 states will be permitted to join the revised union upon application, as was the case with the original union.

A three-year veteran to the Arizona Legislature, Johnson told the Sierra Times the resolution is "insurance policy." "If the federal government declares martial law or attempts to confiscate guns, the states shouldn't have to put up with that," she said.

Joseph Stumph, well-known author and historian, testified in favor of the resolution at the hearing.

"We're proposing that if things get as bad as they could get, that these states won't allow the federal government to put us into a one-world government," said Stumph, who is publishing a similar proposal in his home state of Utah. "I don't expect we'll get 35 states to sign on. The American people are not educated enough on this yet," he added.

The resolution was introduced Jan. 26, and now needs to be approved by the Arizona House. Should HRC 2034 successfully complete the legislative process, it will appear on the November ballot for voter approval. But one legislator does not think the measure will be taken seriously.

Rep. Bill Brotherton, a Democrat member of Johnson's committee, called efforts to promote the bill a "total waste of time."

"Obviously ... one of the more important issues we have is mental health in this state," Brotherton said mockingly. "I wonder if we are going to have a bill on the grassy knoll next to decide who shot Kennedy."

Johnson said she was asked by several Maricopa County residents to look into preventing the federal government from asserting power not authorized by the federal and state Constitutions. To Johnson, the resolution is a watered down, limited version of the "Ultimatum Resolution," written and promoted by Stump.

Johnson said HRC 2034 was introduced in response to recent actions by the Clinton administration regarding the Grand Canyon. On a recent trip to the landmark, President Clinton declared three new national monuments, threatening the property and livelihood of ranchers in the region.

Fears of martial law and firearm confiscation are mere "conspiracy theories" to some, but in light of the elaborate preparations government made for potential Y2K problems -- including a ready-to-sign executive order giving Clinton the equivalent of dictatorial powers -- "these fears have become real possibilities," according to Johnson.

Johnson also made it clear that the action of possible secession should only take place if the federal government suspends or violates the Constitution without approval from the state.

"There may be times when the nation may be at war, and such steps may need to be taken. But the states should have a backup plan if necessary," she said.

Arizona is not alone in its fears. Johnson noted other legislators in other states are considering taking similar steps.

Despite her current success with HRC 2034, Johnson is not relying solely on non-binding resolutions to ensure state sovereignty. She has been joined by a coalition of six other Arizona state representatives, private ranchers and other states' legislators in a lawsuit filed against the federal government.

The lawsuit is an attempt to reverse creation of the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument, which covers more than 1 million acres of land, roughly the same amount as Grand Canyon National Park. The group says national monument status will affect use and access to its private property, which will be surrounded by the federal property.

It also asks the court to find the 1906 Antiquities Act, used to create the Parashant monument, unconstitutional.. The coalition's lawyer claims the president "has taken the act to the point of actually abusing the rights of people in the West."

The act gives presidents emergency authority to protect threatened federal lands or "objects of historic and scientific interest," but lawyer Lana Marcussen said that in using the act for a non-emergency case, the president has gone too far.
 
Not to mention that a large state like CA with only maybe a 53% Democrat majority is a HUGE win for Democrats. They get ALL The electoral votes and they get both Senators and a majority of reps.

Not to mention the water from up North.

Could only happen by force.
 
Grettings Mr. Clark:
IMHO The AZ resolution could be passed. But its implimentation upon declaration of martial law would require armed resistance, the success of which is less likely today than in 1861.
 
IMHO The AZ resolution could be passed. But its implimentation upon declaration of martial law would require armed resistance, the success of which is less likely today than in 1861.

Joe Gunns:

Hello. You are probably right.

Given their current stand on use of the military I would hope most in DC wouldn't have the guts to actually go through with an "occupation" of AZ and, hopefully, the several other states that would join them. Awfully imperialistic of them, no? But, that's wishful thinking. In case of seccession I doubt they would hesitate.

The idea of it coming to blows scares the heck out of me. But it's looking increasingly likely.
 
Letter of the law

OK, so we NorCal'ers can't secede from the PRK to become a new state. And we we can't secede from the U.S. of A. What, if any, provisions exist for separating from California to become a U.S. Territory?

Another point. Formation of a new state requires the approval of the state legislature(s) affected-which is something the State Legislature wouldn't allow. But California has the Ballot Initiative process-which allows any Proposition to get on the ballot with enough signatures. Such a measure passing is slim, but the threat of such a thing could create havoc. Californians who've been here longer, is this possible?
 
Not possible.

The people who would want it are the conservatives in the North which are maybe 10-20% of the population (closer to 10% I think).

It would be wonderful for them, but horrible for the rest of the state and thats where all the votes are.

It really is the 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
 
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