seeking to make a point about knives as tools

[braindead0]

I have an opportunity to change company policy on "weapons"... They're currently trying to get employees to sign an agreement that would not only cover company property but the contents of your vehicle as well (along with consenting to search of your vehicle, bag, pockets, whatever). When I said I couldn't sign it as I'd be in violation from the get go (leatherman in my truck, has knife blades) here's the kinda resonse I get:

No, a pocket knife or utility tool is not considered a dangerous weapon. “…means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.â€

So, does anybody have examples (pictures would be awesome) of knives designed as weapons that appear to be 'utility tools' or the other way around? I'm working on a document that will cover this as well as the fact that denying CHL holders the ability to transport their firearms in their own personal vehicles may open up the company to liablity for the drive to and from work.. among other things.

This vehicle searching thing has stepped over the line as far as I'm concerned (and as far as at least two of the company founders are concerned as well, one of whom is not anti).

Thanks!

 

[mete]

'capable of inflicting death' ? like a ball point pen ,baseball bat, golf club etc ?? but utility tools are OK ? like screwdrivers, prybars, hammers ?? These types of rules and regulations are always absurd. It is and always been that a murder implement is an inanimate object which by itself can do nothing. It is and has always been that it is a person with evil intent that murders. Unfortunately this country is becoming more and more paranoid and ridiculus such as confiscating tweezers at airports !!..... If a company is really interested in creating a safe place it looks to the people. It takes employee greivences and problems very seriously.It tries to be reasonable and fair with employees. It does not create a bad environment such as the Post Office has which created the term "going postal". " Feel good " rules don't make the workplace any safer.

 

[braindead0]

I agree.. what I'd like to do is make the point that nobody here is qualified to determine what constitutes a 'weapon' vs. a 'tool' as such there is no way an employee can hope to comply with the policy.

We're mostly going to go after the policies stated purpose "In order to make the workplace safe..blah blah". And suggest replacing the 'weapon' policy with a simple no violence of any kind will be tolerated type of policy.

There are several shooters here that like to go shooting after work, this proposed policy is going to nix that. I already told them that if this doesn't change I'll be looking for another job.. and quite frankly they can't afford to lose me... and they know that our main competitor would love to have me (we already had a 20year marketing employee bail out to our competitor).

 

[c_yeager]

I think its a pretty clear policy. A weapon is basically anything that was DESIGNED specificaly to BE a weapon or that is used as such.

For example a ball point pen is NOT a weapon untill you stab someone with it. This holds true to most state laws as well. You could easily be convicted of "assault with a deadly weapon" for beating someone with a baseball bat or a length of chain. The article isnt a weapon untill it is used as such.

Now, fitting the exact letter of the policy a SPECIFICALLY designed TARGET PISTOL would NOT be considered a weapon. Good luck trying to get that idea to fly though.

 

[braindead0]

Question become at what point is my spiderco knife 'designed specifically to be a weapon'.. It seems this is right up the assault weapons ban ally, cosmetic features determining whether something is acceptable or not.

I think we'll forego most of that and press for the simple "Violence of any kind will not be tolerated" type of policy. Otherwise by having a policy such as they've written, at least according to one attorney the policy may in effect negate the liability immunities written into the new Ohio law. Perhaps that will make sense to them.

This is going to be fun....personally I'd prefer just to tell them to sod off, but I've got some help on writing something up.. so it'll likely be very polite ;-)

 

[patentnonsense]

If you have input into the policy, consider trying to get the word "unauthorized" into the wording -
since after all a licensed CCW is not "unauthorized," at least in the eyes of the state.

But don't forget that legal accuracy can become the least of your worries in corporate politics

 

[braindead0]

They've already got 'unauthorized' in it, but it specifically states that CHL holders are not authorized....

Some here think we can get them to backoff entirely, and remove the current policy in place of a 'violence will not be tolerated'.. Let's state that the company doesn't put up with criminal behaviour and leave it at that ;-)

 

[hillbilly]

I know that Mossad Ayoob is often cussed on this forum.

But I also know that he usually shows his handgun students autopsy photos of people who were killed with carpet cutters, box cutters, crow bars, pry bars, broken class bottles, hammers, screwdrivers, baseball bats, etc. etc.

Heck, even CSI last night had an episode of a claw hammer murder.

hillbilly

 

[PATH]

Heck, talk to some corrections officers and you'll be made aware of just what every day items can be used or made into weapons. These poicy decisons always end up causing problems. I hope you can prevent them from being utterly draconian!

 

[brownie0486]

Or you could model it after the states dangerous weapons laws where you are from.

On the roads to and from work, you do have to be within that limitation. I see no need to have company policy supercede or be more restrictive than what the state allows presently off site.

Seems natural that if you are legal to and from your employer [ which we should be even if that states laws stink ] where am I to put it when I get to work?

Brownie

 

[braindead0]

I'm hoping to 'keep it real'.. I now know that what they did is found the first Ohio attorney website that said anything at all about employer weapons policy, and parroted what they read. I found 3, 2 of which say nothing about your personal vehicles and also mention that the Ohio law already provides immunity whether they allow CCW or not. I'm hoping they'll see the light, 3 of us (the only shooters that aren't scared to pop their heads up) and going to work a new suggested policy this weekend.

We've already had one long time employee 'escape' to our one major competitor, I'm sure they don't want to lose 2 programmers and a major player in the QA/Installation and general fix anything department.

 

[hso]

I agree with you that the best approach is to remove the weapons policy and replace it with a zero tolerance violence policy. Be sure to put the effort into the new policy though and don't just offer a half effort as a replacement.

A couple of questions - Does your employer own the parking lot? Are they leasing the building? Do they control access to the parking lot with a gate or even a no tresspassing sign? Obviously my point is that if the parking lot is public property they should not extend any policy related to items to public property.

 

[JShirley]

"The safety of our workforce is very important, so X-mart has a no-tolerance policy on workplace violence. Associates MUST comply with state weapons laws on company property, while on company business, or at company-sponsored events. Employees are strongly encouraged to report any suspicious persons or activites on or near site. Together, we can make a safe work environment.
Posters with site security and management numbers will be prominently posted. This site is in a 911-covered region."

John

 

[braindead0]

A couple of questions - Does your employer own the parking lot? Are they leasing the building? Do they control access to the parking lot with a gate or even a no tresspassing sign? Obviously my point is that if the parking lot is public property they should not extend any policy related to items to public property.

Employer owns the building and parking lot. There is not gate, and no "no trespassing" sign. They could extend policy to the parking lot, but we're trying to keep them outta our cars for starters.

I may end up suggesting that the current "no weapons" policy is sufficient, they are simply trying to deny CCW holders from carrying on the premises. It's much simpler to post no CCW signs at the entrances, and then it covers everybody equally.

"The safety of our workforce is very important, so X-mart has a no-tolerance policy on workplace violence. Associates MUST comply with state weapons laws on company property, while on company business, or at company-sponsored events. Employees are strongly encouraged to report any suspicious persons or activites on or near site. Together, we can make a safe work environment.

Excellent suggestion, I'll post that to the "Reasonable Policy" committee ;-)

 

[lee n. field]

They're currently trying to get employees to sign an agreement that would not only cover company property but the contents of your vehicle as well (along with consenting to search of your vehicle, bag, pockets, whatever).

So what happens to you if you don't sign?

 

[braindead0]

So what happens to you if you don't sign?

Good question, there are at least 5 people here I know of who will not sign it.. as we comprise nearly 100% of the development department,... uh.. I don't think they'll be firing anyone soon.

We've got a document with a one page 'fact' sheet regarding CCW, probably going to attach a 'nine myths of gun control' type thing to it as well (one of the guys here thinks they'll listen to reason). We end by suggesting if they feel that we must have a policy, use this. Note the weasely wording.. this policy applies to CCW holders but it only says you must comply with all laws.. in udder words, you can carry on company property:

Violence-Free Workplace Policy

The safety of our workforce is very important. Employees must comply with federal, state and local weapons laws on company property, while on company business, or at company sponsored events. Employees are strongly encouraged to report any threatening or violent behavior, suspicious persons or activities. Together we can make a safe work environment.

This policy applies to all Company staff members, contract and temporary employees regardless of whether or not they are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

"Company property" covered by this policy includes all Company-owned or leased buildings and surrounding areas such as sidewalks, walkways, driveways, and parking lots under the Company's ownership or control. This policy also applies to all Company-owned or leased vehicles.

 

[Wanderer]

Well, you could get a tomahawk or machete and keep it in your truck. Just say you use it to chop wood. You could point out rescue type knives designed to cut seat belts, etc. You could take up shaving with a straight razor, and have one of those.

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

You will not likely be able to legislate INTENT...

During the Rodney King riots, any weapon was frowned upon and the person with it, taken away.

Hells Angels stood on the street corners with three foot long screw drivers and golf clubs... near the club, there at Hollywood and Vine. I carried huge knitting needles and a small mayonaise jar of pure capisicum pepper in alcohol as well as 40 inches of two way radio antenna inside my pantleg from ankle to above the belt... Good luck... and what about sharpened soup spoons... when I worked in the prisons, spoons were used often... and toilet plungers, sharpened and dipped....

 

[braindead0]

Well, one of my cohorts thinks we'll actually be able to change things here.. I hope he's right.

I fully intent to point out that we have many items in house that could be used as deadly weapons very easily... heck the computer monitor I'm looking at would do nicely ;-)

 

[Wanderer]

Point out computer cable, boxcutters, scissors, screwdrivers, hammers, etc. All deadly, but they have a purpose and a reason.