Why Are Knives Always Weapons?

[Mannix]

What is a tool but an object that allows us primates to do things more efficiently? Whether it's killin' or cuttin' or doin' whatever other task is at hand, it's a tool. Every weapon is a tool, plain and simple.

 

[Six O'clock Tactical]

I carry a Kershaw, but thats because in the SUNY system *(along with most others except utah) firearms are 100% illegal.

Its a 4" utility locking folder, but Ill be damned if I wont turn it on someone should they come at me. Where I go to school, its all about gangs beating up individuals. I dont have a gang... you can do the math.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Four-Inch Folder

While I can empathize, I think there are some caveats you want to consider.

I imagine I don't have to explain the dynamics of a one-to-several confrontation, so I'll skip that.

A four-inch folder may be adequate as a weapon, but remember that, unless you have a well-designed grip and a really good lock, there are potential failures built into using what is designed as a tool for weapons purposes.

Unless you've had some training in the effective use of a (short) knife in hand-to-hand, I'd suggest you seek out training of some kind. At the very least, avail yourself of the Army Field Manual on the subject, as that covers basics like proper grip and stuff.

Knife "fighting" is a really messy thing. In fact, it seems to me that we've had any number of threads on this.

I would refer you to the estimable John Shirley (JShirley) and hso for further information on proper use of a knife in self defense.

 

[Six O'clock Tactical]

The Kershaw Black Horse II...
http://www.knivestown.com/kershaw_knives/kershaw_pocket_knives_100566.asp
The grip is really, really tight. blood, grease, sweat, oil... nothing has been able to get this thing out of my hands. (i havent really bled enough to really test that though.. just cuts and scrapes worth.)
And absolutely, knife fights are some of the worst things in the world. I am a believer in the "biomechanical cutting" method, and will employ that if ever needed. Frankly, i really hope ill never need to.

 

[JShirley]

Honestly, a better choice is almost always to keep attackers outside knife range. One potential tool is to braid a long lanyard out of 550 cord, with a carabiner at one end, and your keys at the other. It looks less like a potential weapon than a chain, while being lighter and stronger. Something like this extends your reach, multiplies your force, and is handy on a day-to-day basis, as well.

John

 

[Spiggy]

There's a large mall here where security will bust you for gravity knife or switchblade(no-nos) if your knife can be operated with one hand(spring assisted or hand stud)

I've never seen my knife for anything but a tool; I've cut boxes and rope, picked splinters and cleaned small bits with it... Hell I sometimes use it to cut food and eat with it! last thing I need is bits of human goo on my knife.

the regular ignorant sheeple sees knives as a "zomfg_weapon!" but these are the same people that think if we gave everyone in the world a million dollars, it would solve poverty.

 

[Stainz]

If my knives are actually weapons, rather than the tools I think they are, does that make me, every time I accidently cut myself - suicidal??

Again, I CC either a five shot .38 or .44. They are horrid to plink with. I cannot open a bottle of pop with them. I can protect myself, of course, with either one. They are weapons.

Stainz

 

[The Tourist]

Daggers are double edged, symmetrical stabbers. They're weapons.

Au contraire. My wife has a double edged knife from the Western company. She's owned it for more than 20 years.

She goes white water rafting and wilderness camping with teachers and friends from her school. Equipment weight is a premium.

A double edged knife is actually "two knives," and considers the other edge a 'spare.'

To her it's a camp knife, always has been, always will be.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Double-Edged

I own a dagger or two.

I also own a couple of double-edged knives that are NOT daggers.

His description is correct: a dagger is a stabbing instrument.

I have a "pig sticker" type knife that's "two knives" -- one fine-edge, one coarse-edge. It has a modest point, and is not a dagger.

I have another that's very sharp on one side, complete with normal point, and the spine is actually a saw. It's not designed for stabbing, and is not a dagger.

I've seen double-edged diving knives that had no point worthy of the name.

It's not "two edges" that makes it a dagger, it's the "pointy stabbing" design.

 

[takhtakaal]

A knife, like a firearm, is only a tool. Objects are neither evil nor benevolent. People are.

Sikhs carry an edged implement called kirpan as part of their religious duty, after being initiated into an oder of the religion called Khalsa.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kirpan

 

[AStone]

OK, so we all agree:
knives are not always weapons.

They are first and foremost tools.

Having said that,
call me irrational,
but I want either
one of these
or one of these.

Also, I'm curious:
if you were to buy a dagger,
which one would it be,
and why that one?

 

[AStone]

...I want either
one of these ...

... to match this,
which is, so far,
the finest knife
I've owned.

 

[The Tourist]

the finest knife I've owned.

Then you've answered your own question. A "tool" isn't superior because your guru says it is, it is good because it serves you.

As a kid, I was told not to use a baseball bat by crossing my wrists. Supposedly if I ever hit a ball that way we were all doomed to world communism.

Last year I see that a pro player swings that way.

I would suggest that you do pay more attention to the steel used in your tools. Lots of newer alloys.

 

[AStone]

I would suggest that you do pay more attention to the steel used in your tools. Lots of newer alloys.

TT, I'm open to suggestions. Seriously.

What do you recommend?

 

[possom813]

that 'on sale' deal... I'm a sucker for such

No kidding, I like a bargain store called Big Lots and another called Freds. Just because it was on sale after Christmas, I bought a "Humvee" gift set of 3 mean looking knives that I needed so badly they're still in plastic. But for $3.50, marked down from $29.99. How could I pass that up???

I bought a Case XXXChanger a few years back because of the versatility, then it became a hassle to carry it everywhere and I was constantly worried about losing the extra blades.

I have several dozen different knives, and they all were designed with purpose in mind. I only have one that I would consider a weapon, and it's a hand made knife, styled after a bowie and is about 18" overall. It weighs in at about 4lbs, so if nothing else, I can club ya with it.

I discovered, some time ago, that instead of carrying two or three different knives to cover what I need each day, I prefer a multi-tool. I carry a Leatherman Blast(Warranty replacement on my original Leatherman). I've done everything I need with this knife, including field dressing a hog(I didn't have my ATV, and the truck was over a mile away, with the hunting knife in it)

 

[The Tourist]

TT, I'm open to suggestions. Seriously. What do you recommend?

I get good service from knives made from 154-CM, S30V and BG-42. I have clients that like Spydercos of VG-10 and the Cold Steel line of VG-1.

 

[Boats]

A dagger?

TOPS Ranger's Edge 1095--Carbon steel

Fallkniven G-1 "Garm" Fighter--Coated VG-10 stainless steel.


Ontario Spec Plus M-7 Bayonet --1095 Carbon steel.


All of the above are a better dagger choice than a blade in AUS-8 stainless steel like the SOGs are made from.

 

[AStone]

154-CM, S30V, BG-42, VG-10, VG-1, 1095 carbon steel v AUS-8.

OK, I'm listening. I'm sure this has been discussed many many times before, but humor me here for the sake of this thread: explained in a way that anyone can understand, what makes all the former superior to AUS-8?

Why do the former yield "good service" that is better than AUS-8?

I'm not criticizing the assertion. I just don't know the answer to that.

Sharper edges? More durable edges? Less rust? Less likely to break? ...
__________

Research: Found this story and this one that helped.

And another.

From that last one, a comment by Cliff Stamp:

It looks like AUS-8 was added as a baseline of sorts...

Exactly right. It is a very common steel and probably bottom of the barrel in terms of soft material edge retention

Still, I have to ask, is the difference that pronounced and worth it?

There seem to be trade offs: hold edge longer v easier to get edge back.
Then there's that cost issue.

Sorry to partially derail the discuss from tools v weapons,
but this seems to be about tool quality and maintenance.

 

[AStone]

And one more point, if I may.

Let's think for a moment about hammers and screwdrivers.

IMO, both of those tools
must be of the proper length,
and need good handles.

That is, if a hammer/screwdriver
is too short or long,
it won't work as well.

Likewise, the part that you hold on to
is important in making the tool work.

If the handle is inferior,
then even if the Philip's head is made from harder steel,
it isn't going to put that screw in (take it out) better.

If the handle is inferior, or the length is wrong (for you),
then that harder hammer won't put that nail in quicker.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this:
I understand that AUS-8 of the SOGs may be "inferior"
in terms of hardness, edge holding ability, and such.

But what if we factor in the handles?
I like Kraton grips on the SOGs.
Kraton is light, molds well (great shape),
contributes to a positive grip (ymmv).

The length of that Daggert 1 blade (5.65")
seems appropriate for a dagger.
(An average thorax is 12" deep.)

The Garm is harder steel, & will keep an edge longer,
but seems a little short to reach a major artery
(e.g, pulmonary, aorta).

And how many times will a dagger be thrust into ... what ever?
If twenty times daily, then hard edge is important.
If once every ... , then perhaps less so.

The Ranger Edge is 1095, but my intuition suggests that
I wouldn't like that thin grip as much as one molded of Kraton.

And the blade guards of the Daggert are far more positive.

So, a question: which is most important in choosing a tool?

• steel
• length
• handle
• shape
• other

 

[Boats]

154-CM, S30V, BG-42, VG-10, VG-1, 1095 carbon steel v AUS-8.

OK, I'm listening. I'm sure this has been discussed many many times before, but humor me here for the sake of this thread: explained in a way that anyone can understand, what makes all the former superior to AUS-8?

In this particular case, for a SOG Daggert 2, you are being asked to pony up the better part of a C note to own a very pedestrian blade steel.

As you no doubt found out from your reading, AUS 8 is not very well regarded, primarily due to its low wear resistance. VG-10 is much better in that regard and probably more corrosion resistant due to the addition of Cobalt.

AUS 8 is reasonably corrosion resistant, sharpens easily, and loses its edge relatively easily. Does that matter in a dagger?

Not really, if all you need to do is stab with it. Any other field task, such as batoning down a sapling (which is going to be tough on the cutting and very tough on the hammered edge, which is why daggers generally stink for survival work), making fuzz sticks, striking a fire steel, cutting rope or coarse vegetation, is going to really expose AUS 8 as the economy choice of the maker.

Why do the former yield "good service" that is better than AUS-8?

Now that I have explained my view that VG-10 is better for wear resistance, I'll tell you why 1095 carbon is my favorite for this style of knife.

It's tougher.

Laterally, torsionally, on the tip, 1095 is more flexible, more shock resistant, and more likely to hold up under extreme use than is any stainless steel.

We're talking about a stabbing knife here. The second edge grind is inherently weaker than a single edged piece of steel already due to the amount of material removed. Then, because the knife buying public has gotten lazy since the end of WW2, many makers use chromium filled stainless steels to keep things pretty.

Chromium makes knives "stainless". It also makes them more brittle and prone to breakage compared to simpler carbon steels.

Also, since the chromium goes into the steel matrix, and embrittles the steel, the alloy has to be "tweaked" to get something useable as a knife out of it. More complex stainless steels approach this problem through addition of oftentimes expensive elemental additives, Cheaper stainlesses do it by subtracting out carbon content and throwing in some nickel.

The lower the carbon content, the "softer" the metal is.

AUS 8: .70-.75 C, .50 Mn, 13.0-14.5 Cr, .49 Ni, .10-.26 V, .10-.30 Mo

VG-10: 0.95-1.05 C, 0.50 Mn, 14.50-15.50 Cr, 0.10-0.30 V, 0.90-1.20 Mo, 1.30-1.50 Co

1095: 0.90-1.03 C, 0.30-0.50 Mn

As you can see, compositionally, VG-10 has as much carbon and manganese as 1095. AUS 8 skimps on the carbon by comparison.

C--Carbon--Higher yields a harder steel.

Mn--Manganese--Added for toughness and hardenability.

Then stainlesses in these two varieties add in the following, which creates compromises in exchange for the added corrosion resistance, but AUS 8 is more compromised.

Cr--Chromium, adds stain resistance but adds hardness, too much of which embrittles the steel.

Ni--Nickel, an inexpensive additive to try and make up for the "lost" carbon in lower alloy stainlesss steels. Not present in the higher carbon VG-10.

V--Vanadium, allows for a finer grained knife steel.

Mo--Molybdenum, the element that sets AUS 8 apart from AUS 6, increases hardness. AUS 6 is a garbage blade steel in my estimation.

Co--Cobalt, the element VG-10 has that AUS 8 lacks. A kind of "do all" element that increases hardness, wear, and generally strengthens a complex alloy stainless. Adds some corrosion resistance too.

SNIP

Sharper edges?

No, all are capable of initially sharp edges.

More durable edges?

Both VG-10 and 1095 will handily outperform AUS 8 on wear resistance.

Less rust?

VG-10 wins there and any stainless over carbon steel. All knives contemplated are coated however, so this isn't a huge factor.

Less likely to break?

The simpler carbon steels win this one every time.

But what if we factor in the handles?
I like Kraton grips on the SOGs.
Kraton is light, molds well (great shape),
contributes to a positive grip (ymmv).

My only complaint with Kraton is that DEET melts it. The micarta of the TOPS is the toughest handle by far, followed by the Garm's thermo plastic, followed by Kraton.

The length of that Daggert 1 blade (5.65")
seems appropriate for a dagger.
(An average thorax is 12" deep.)

The Garm is harder steel, & will keep an edge longer,
but seems a little short to reach a major artery
(e.g, pulmonary, aorta).

The Garm seems short for a "rib sticker," but seems adequate in the throat/face area. We're not talking bullet penetration requirements from all axes here, your heart and lungs are not twelve inches deep frontally.

And how many times will a dagger be thrust into ... what ever?
If twenty times daily, then hard edge is important.
If once every ... , then perhaps less so.

The odds are much higher that the knife would be used repeatedly for more mundane tasks.

The Ranger Edge is 1095, but my intuition suggests that
I wouldn't like that thin grip as much as one molded of Kraton.

And the blade guards of the Daggert are far more positive.

So, a question: which is most important in choosing a tool?
steel
length
handle
shape
other

My favorite among the compared blades is the Ontario M-7.

Carbon steel, good length epoxy coated blade, acceptable handle, good guard design, a striking pommel, and only $40.00 or roughly half the price of the SOG with its lesser blade and "tricked out" titanium nitride coating which will wear away eventually. The SOG has a better sheath though.

The Fallkniven and the TOPS don't offer anything near the value of the Ontario either.

 

[The Tourist]

There is also the practical aspect of what makes a certain steel superior, and that's its intended life for the end user.

I'm not a big fan of 1084 or 1095. However, if I was in a survival situation where I needed to abuse a knife as a pry-bar and use rudimentary tools for sharpening, a TOPS knife in 1095 would be quite useful.

In my current daily life, I carry a Strider or an Emerson. Besides the quality, both are in the family of "higher carbon, low chrome" that fits my lifestyle.

I need some corrosion protection, but I'm not a sailor exposing my knives to continuous salt water spray. The worst I do is cut salty, buttery steak at a restaurant, or carry them in muggy pockets in summer. I am also in a position to routinely clean and oil my knives. I also use Tuff-Cloth.

(I would also carry a Buck 110 as a sheath knife in summer.)

At the moment, Emerson is using 154-CM and Strider uses S30V, and there are some BG-42 examples still on shelves. They fit my life perfectly.

In fact, Microtech makes some knives in D-2. That alloy is actually 11% chromium where 154-CM is 12%. A tisket, a tasket.

Now, if I was a sailor I would choose 440C (up to 17% chromium) or the newer H1 alloy used by Spyderco in their Salt (Pacific) style knives.

When someone says "what's the best and why," I always ask about what they do for a living.

 

[Doug S]

Interesting post. I guess that's why most often I find myself carrying a Victorinox Swiss Champ. I bet I could set about and complete a good many of the tasks listed in the original post, with my SAK. I've even thought that in a pinch, the saw might make a good slashing tool.

 

[Boats]

There is also the practical aspect of what makes a certain steel superior, and that's its intended life for the end user.

I'm not a big fan of 1084 or 1095. However, if I was in a survival situation where I needed to abuse a knife as a pry-bar and use rudimentary tools for sharpening, a TOPS knife in 1095 would be quite useful.

My steel discussion was in terms of the daggers that Nematocyst and me were discussing. In a folder, the liabilities of stainless are lessened by the shorter blade length, the "pre-broken" nature of all folding knives, and the stain resistance of the steel being a more useful feature in a pocket knife than in a field knife.

In my current daily life, I carry a Strider or an Emerson. Besides the quality, both are in the family of "higher carbon, low chrome" that fits my lifestyle.

I agree wholeheartedly with carrying a quality folder. I have folders in ZDP-189, H-1, VG-10, S30V, D2, and BG-42. Most are Spydercos because the hole and lock backs work best with my lefthandedness, but I also have a few Bucks with "up-bucks" blade steels I will never part with too.

I need some corrosion protection, but I'm not a sailor exposing my knives to continuous salt water spray. The worst I do is cut salty, buttery steak at a restaurant, or carry them in muggy pockets in summer. I am also in a position to routinely clean and oil my knives. I also use Tuff-Cloth.

(I would also carry a Buck 110 as a sheath knife in summer.)

At the moment, Emerson is using 154-CM and Strider uses S30V, and there are some BG-42 examples still on shelves. They fit my life perfectly.

I believe that people place too much emphasis on corrosion protection. There are museum pieces in perfect condition that would be dark ages equivalents of 1050 that were simply well cared for. Sailors somehow got by with patinaed carbon steel, knives, cutlasses, axes, and other carbon steel implements for centuries.

The Titanic sank in 1912. The wreckage, made entirely of carbon steels, is still not collapsing of its own weight. Dissolved oxygen works more slowly than a salt water/air combo, but surface rust on a knife is completely a cosmetic issue if routine maintenance is performed, often nothing more than an odd wipe down.

In fact, Microtech makes some knives in D-2. That alloy is actually 11% chromium where 154-CM is 12%. A tisket, a tasket.

Now, if I was a sailor I would choose 440C (up to 17% chromium) or the newer H1 alloy used by Spyderco in their Salt (Pacific) style knives.

When someone says "what's the best and why," I always ask about what they do for a living.

My favorite all around fixed blade knife is a Bark River Bravo-1. It is made of A-2, a tremendously tough carbon tool steel. It has five percent chrome so that it doesn't rust just looking at it, and it gets a nice patina with continued use. I can, and do, take it into marine environments all of the time without any problem. Corrosion is more of a marketing scare than an acutal problem unless one's blade is made of L6 or something.

It's just most people can't stand not having a spotless knife for some reason that is entirely psychological.

Here is the Bravo-1

If I were reduced to one knife, it would be this one, no matter where I had to take it.

 

[AStone]

Steel 101

Boats,

Thats a fantastic little primer on knife steel there. Just what I've been wanting to read for a long time. Thanks for offering that.

I've just started my workday, and it's a busy one (as are the next couple), so I've only just given your two essays above a quick read so far. As soon as I get some time over the next day or two, I'm going to spend more time with them.

I have one question for now that will aid my understanding about this:

AUS 8: .70-.75 C, .50 Mn, 13.0-14.5 Cr, .49 Ni, .10-.26 V, .10-.30 Mo

VG-10: 0.95-1.05 C, 0.50 Mn, 14.50-15.50 Cr, 0.10-0.30 V, 0.90-1.20 Mo, 1.30-1.50 Co

1095: 0.90-1.03 C, 0.30-0.50 Mn

I understand the elemental symbols, but I'm unsure what the units are on the numbers. They aren't proportions since they add up to more than 1. But I'm not sure how to interpret those in an absolute sense.

Interesting conversation here. Thanks for the thread, Arf.

Nem

 

[Boats]

The numbers listed are percentage ranges. All elements listed are for alloying into steel. The alloying elements are all traces save for chrome, which is present in some steels up to 17 percentage points.

The huge number that is missing out of the 100 percentage points is Fe--Iron. It is always assumed that the rest of the alloy's composition is iron unless a non-ferrous alloy is denoted, like beta titanium, which Mission's famous titanium knives are made from.