Posted by GEM: Do bad guys hit with a 22 LR or 25 ACP shrug it off and continue to attack at a rate different from other rounds if they are not DRT?
That's the real question, of course.
And the answer is very variable, I think.
What are the condition and motivation of the assailant(s), and at what point in the course of the crime does the hit occur?
Is it a crime of opportunity to grab a purse, any purse, some time during the evening, or does the attacker have a very pressing need to take my car right now to avoid capture and going back into prison, or a pressing need to take my money from the ATM to pay a dangerous gang leader before an impending deadline, or to take my money right now to satisfy a very pressing need for drugs?
Does he feel that upon being shot he still has the opportunity to withdraw, or has the sight of may firearm made him believe that his only way to survive depends on his shooting or slashing me?
Is he enraged, on drugs, or both?
That brings to mind two things covered in the aforementioned FBI report, HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS.
The first is discussed in the section on "The human Target":
Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso. Awareness of the injury (often delayed by the suppression of pain); fear of injury, death, blood, or pain; intimidation by the weapon or the act of being shot; preconceived notions of what people do when they are shot; or the simple desire to quit can all lead to rapid incapacitation even from minor wounds.
This is repeated in the section on The Allure of Shooing Incident Analyses:
Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot. This phenomenon is independent of caliber, bullet, or hit location, and is beyond the control of the shooter. It can only be proven in the act, not predicted. It requires only two factors to be effected: a shot and cognition of being shot by the target. Lacking either one, people are not at all predisposed to fall down and don’t. Given this predisposition, the choice of caliber and bullet is essentially irrelevant.
A .32 ACP may obviously suffice, but for...
However, psychological factors are also the primary cause of incapacitation failures.
The individual may be unaware of the wound and thus has no stimuli to force a reaction. Strong will, survival instinct, or sheer emotion such as rage or hate can keep a grievously injured individual fighting, as is common on the battlefield and in the street. The effects of chemicals can be powerful stimuli preventing incapacitation. Adrenaline alone can be sufficient to keep a mortally wounded adversary functioning. Stimulants, anesthetics, pain killers, or tranquilizers can all prevent incapacitation by suppressing pain, awareness of the injury, or eliminating any concerns over the injury. Drugs such as cocaine, PCP, and heroin are disassociative in nature. One of their effects is that the individual "exists" outside of his body. He sees and experiences what happens to his body, but as an outside observer who can be unaffected by it yet continue to use the body as a tool for fighting or resisting.
This is again repeated:
The problem, and the reason for seeking a better cartridge for incapacitation, is that individual who is not predisposed to fall down. Or the one who is simply unaware of having been shot by virtue of alcohol, adrenaline, narcotics, or the simple fact that in most cases of grievous injury the body suppresses pain for a period of time. Lacking pain, there may be no physiological effect of being shot that can make one aware of the wound. Thus the real problem: if such an individual is threatening one’s life, how best to compel him to stop by shooting him?
Another thing covered in the report apples more directly to the heart of this discussion. That is the discussion in the section on The Allure of Shooting Incident Analyses on the limitations of using limited actual data to form bases for conclusions:
The factors governing incapacitation of the human target are many, and variable....... Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other calibers combined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22’s for self-defense. The more important question, which is sadly seldom asked, is what did the individual do when hit?
There is a problem in trying to assess calibers by small numbers of shootings. For example, as has been done, if a number of shootings were collected in which only one hit was attained and the percentage of one shot stops was then calculated, it would appear to be a valid system. However, if a large number of people are predisposed to fall down, the actual caliber and bullet are irrelevant. What percentage of those stops were thus preordained by the target? How many of those targets were not at all disposed to fall down? How many multiple shot failures to stop occurred? What is the definition of a stop? What did the successful bullets hit and what did the unsuccessful bullets hit? How many failures were in the vital organs, and how many were not? How many of the successes? What is the number of the sample? How were the cases collected? What verifications were made to validate the information? How can the verifications be checked by independent investigation?
Because of the extreme number of variables within the human target, and within shooting situations in general, even a hundred shootings is statistically insignificant. If anything can happen, then anything will happen, and it is just as likely to occur in your ten shootings as in ten shootings spread over a thousand incidents.
The difference between civilian self defense and LEO applications has been mentioned several times in this discussion.
Let me offer the following opinion. In terms of the penetration and placement and the number of hits required to stop one or more
attacking violent criminal actors with a handgun, it makes no difference whether the shooter is a deputy sheriff or a retired accountant.
It is when the sworn officer, who is not afforded the luxury of retreat, is in pursuit of a suspect that his extra high capacity magazines make an important difference, and it is when the sworn officer is faced with shooting a criminal through plate glass or an auto body that the extra performance of his .40 S&W with +P rounds becomes very desirable, as compared to the century old .38 Special.
My wife does not go to the drive though ATM alone. We want two sets of eyes and hands. And we go only in the daytime.
We live in the number one county in the number one state in the nation for methamphetamine production.
By the way, my J-Frame is more often than not the weapon of choice. I do not carry +P rounds.
I consider it the bare minimum.
Yes, it's a continuum, not an all or nothing proposition.
