Serious Question About The Death Toll At VT

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I really doubt the 9mm has a 93% 1 shot kill ratio (exept in video games) but I also feel people way underestimate the effectiveness of the 9mm
 
Dear TXWhackmaster, I am but a student of firearms and statistics after reading your comment
If you had 1/2 the firearms training that I have had you wouldn't question this one.
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I realized that perhaps that is my problem,

I recieved my first training on firearms 40 years ago. Since then I have been reading and taking classes as well as doing forensic photography for the Conn State Police, Medical Photography, worked in ER on GSW victims as well as in the OR. My current section on firearms in my library is about 6 feet ( I measure the width of the shelves :) )

Since you are a newcomer here perhaps you do not understand about people asking for a source. Normally an individual will refer to a website, a book, a published article. Something that someone else can verify, found out how the number was reached and what parameters were used in the the acqusition of the data. All of those appear to be lacking in you "reference".

I am withholding my opinoin of the data as I give you, as others have, a chance to respond like a person on "The High Road"

NukemJim
 
Not to step on toes, This is the internet. But we at THR do not blindly accept Statements on "one shot kill ratios or percentages" or someones training. So that said, KEEP it on the HIGH road. No Name calling or breaking any rules.
 
if the victims were lying on the floor or huddled under desks, then shot placement (which usually factors a lot more than the ammo selection) is no longer an issue.

Also, given the lack of resistance, it is not like he couldn't shoot the person a second or third time, and calmly reload as needed, particularly with the chained doors.

disarmed students with a victim mindset made it way too easy for the shooter.
 
BTT to give "TXWhackmaster" a third chance to respond in a fashion appropriate to "The High Road"

NukemJim
 
Maybe the "Axis of EVil" is testing us to find a good ratio of how many covert opps they have to activate to get the job done. Activate enough in "Gun Free Zones" and you will kill a LOT of Americans in one day. The Media will be Going nuts and we wont know what hit us until it's all over.

9/11 anyone.

Dude that's crazy.

Really? Using Jet liners as missiles isn't?

I am half way kidding of course but have we all forgotten this?

Kamikaze-about-to-hit-USS-M.jpg
KAMIKAZE ABOUT TO HIT USS MISSOURI
 
I heard all the V's had multiple shots....

someone was saying that the med examiner stated the V's had multiple shots. I too find it difficult to believe SO MANY died from just one gun. This guy had to be extremely PROFICIENT.

With regard to people rushing him it seems we are NOW more a of culture of the "smart" jump out the windows and save themselves. It is not a LEAP to state that the values of this country have fallen, IMO.
 
I don't remember now whether it was the medical examiner or one of the doctors, but during an interview they commented on the consistency of the shooter. Almost everyone had been shot three times.
 
From what I heard most victims were shot 3 or more times. Add that to the fact they couldnt use helecopters to get them to trauma centers in Roanoke which is at the very least 30 min by car.
 
Several posts refer to the news story about the ER doctor quoted as saying most victims he saw had 3 or more wounds each; I've copied the story below.

Also I agree with the above posts stating high fatality rates and numbers are more due the situation (trapped, defenseless people unable or unwilling to run or fight back) and the apparently methodical shooter and less due to the weapon, magazine or ammunition used.

Finally, I think we should all note the “facts” that have appeared in the news media and on the internet (including this forum) that have turned out not to be true. Even “eye witness” interviews that turn out not to be true. Same thing happened after Columbine and most other times things like this happen. Everyone has a natural drive to know what happened and why in these cases, but we need to wait until we get the real facts before drawing conclusions.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17...ded/index.html

ER doctor: never seen 'anything like this before'
POSTED: 1619 GMT (0019 HKT), April 17, 2007
Story Highlights:
• ER doctor: "The injuries were just amazing"
• The victims he saw "didn't have less than three bullet wounds"
• Seventeen of the wounded remained hospitalized Tuesday

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- It was more like a scene from an episode of "ER" than one from a real-life hospital in a small college town. "Nobody had ever seen anything like this before," CEO for Montgomery Regional Hospital Scott Hill said. "You can never adequately prepare for this level of violence."

On a day where too many died on the scene, many more were taken, injured and bleeding to the hospital. It was a process hindered by the weather. High winds prevented the use of helicopters to move patients, Hill said.

Dr. Joseph Cacioppo, an emergency room doctor at Montgomery, indicated he was stunned when victims began pouring in. "The injuries were just amazing. This man was brutal. There wasn't a shooting victim that didn't have less than three bullet wounds in him," Cacioppo said of the victims he saw.

Not all of the injuries were life threatening. "Even, again, the less serious injuries, we saw one patient that had a bullet wound to the wrist, one to the elbow and one to the thigh. We had another one with a bullet wound to the abdomen, one to the chest and one to the head," Cacioppo said.

Seventeen of the wounded remained hospitalized Tuesday, and at least one of those patients was to be released Tuesday, Hill said. All of the nine patients at Montgomery, including three who had been critical, were now in stable condition, he said.

Montgomery in Blacksburg received a total of 19 patients, Hill said.

In addition, three patients remained at Lewis-Gale Medical Center in Salem, two remained in critical condition at Roanoke Memorial Hospital and three were in stable condition at New River Valley Medical Center in Blacksburg, hospital officials said.

Seven patients had been released from hospitals by Tuesday, Hill said.
 
The "Chinese" shooter has been identified as a South Korean, who was a "resident alien" for 14 years. As a "resident alien", he was also legally allowed to purchase the firearms that he used (that doesn't sit right with me!).

Supposedly, most of the deceased victims were shot multiple times. Since some often think that the 9mm round is "puny", you had better do some re-thinking! Add to that, the .22 LR is not quite as "puny" as you might think! It may turn out that several of the deceased students were killed by .22 rounds that entered their chest cavity and bounced around off of bones and cartilage.

All too often, many of us think that we might be doomed if we don't have a firearm to defend ourselves against an armed suspect. While it's true, that being on somewhat "equal terms" would be best, certain "weapons" are overlooked....perhaps due to panic. I am sure that there were fire extinguishers in that college building, and they CAN be used as a "weapon" of sorts! Heck, so can chairs! The students could only think "flight" or "duck and cover". Had one of those students been able to rally a group of students together, they might have been able to "gang tackle" the armed "resident alien"!
ANYTHING would have been better than to being killed without even trying to fight back! The Professor who placed himself between the suspect and several students was a true HERO! That Professor had survived the Holocaust, for he had been in one of the Nazi death camps....only to die at the hands of a crazed South Korean "resident alien"!
 
Thank you Desert Dawg,

This puke lived a mile from me. No kidding. No, I don't recall seeing him, but he would be utterly unremarkable in our community.

The comPost says he had lived here legally since he was 8 years old. Parents run a local dry-cleaning shop. He graduated from the local mega-highschool, Westfields High, our latest state-of-the-art indoctrination center/zoo. He was, for all intents and purposes, a fully Americanized kid. He was also one twisted, warped kid. I just read two one-act plays attributed to him. If (big if) these were really his work, someone did something to this kid to short out his wires. Sick, sick writing, topped by sick, sick actions.
 
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I do seem to recall hearing/seeing a clip on CNN on the day of the slayings in which double-taps were plainly audible. I've not heard anything further (I don't have a TV), so again I might be mistaken - but if this were the case, it would plainly indicate someone who went through training. I believe that the possession of the Walther P22 in addition to the Glock would support this theory as well - it'd only cost roughly $50-$100 and some careful aim in .22 ammo to become quite the proficient shot.

And if you're in a confined area where people are cowering, it's hardly a stretch of the imagination that someone who's trying to kill as many people as possible (or at least, trying to kill instead of just shoot) would finish off the wounded ones. There's also no telling how much ammunition he expended, and it's possible that he killed every one that he'd intentionally shot at by making sure they had at least several holes in them.

Folks, given the circumstances, I think we're pretty damn lucky he didn't kill more than he did. He faced no resistance whatsoever, to the exception of a geriatric professor (God bless his soul). That is sickening in and of itself. This kid could probably have kept shooting for an hour or until his hands got tired; fortunately, it appears (at least to me) that he simply got bored with killing and decided to take his own life, or maybe he felt he'd killed enough to make his statement clear (whatever that statement supposedly was).

I certainly think there is more to this story than we are currently being told, whether it's that he had jihadist associations, that he had training,

Side thought: could it have been that he was a patsy? They found him dead there with the gun and fingerprints on the gun, and the gun's receipt in the backpack, sure. But that is not conclusive that he was the shooter, as far as I know. There have been no witnesses from inside the school (again AFAIK) to come forward with affirmative confirmation that he was, indeed, the shooter, that there was only one, etc. - we've simply heard from the police confirming that it was just him. Why is that? It's certainly unusual. Why would he bother to file off the serial number on the pistol if he had the receipt in his bag (and it was likely pretty clear to him that they could still find out that he was the shooter because, ya know, he made claims that he was going to kill people that day) - and all this despite the fact that he committed suicide (supposedly) with the weapon when he was done? They found the weapon right there with his fingerprints on it, after all. Something just doesn't add up.

There are still a LOT of questions left unanswered.
 
Essentially, surprise kills.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it answers questions raised in this thread as well.

First, read this article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266566,00.html

Here are some of the pertinent parts:
At first, he said, everyone thought the noises they were hearing were the hammering sounds of construction.

"We didn't make that much of it," said O'Dell, who was hit in the right arm. Then "he entered our room and started shooting people."

Cho first shot the professor in the head before gunning down some of his classmates in the front row, according to O'Dell. Most of the people in that part of the room died, he said. O'Dell dove under his desk.

"I knew I was shot, but I knew I had to barricade the door 'cause he might return and shoot the rest of us," he said. Those who weren't gravely wounded used anything they could —- shoes, feet, hands — to block the door.

"It was pure carnage — blood everywhere, blood spewed against the walls," O'Dell remembered.
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And:
"He came in with two guns and he immediately opened fire," he said. "I would say within 10 seconds, there were so many people down. He wasn't in any location to try to tackle him. I thought about getting up to try to do it, but he was just shooting. There was no way to get over the desks."
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The people who were there are going to second guess themselves enough. We here, sitting at our computers, far away from the massacre, don't need to do it for them.
 
This guy had to be extremely PROFICIENT
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the account of One witness (a maintainence man working in the building where the secound shooting occured. interveiwed on NPR monday afternoon) puts some doubt into that belief.

by this gentleman's account, he'd gone up to find a warn a co-worker and in that process, came across a wounded person laying in a doorway. he approached the victim to see if he knew who it was (stated later in the interveiw that the victim was still breathing at this point), at that time the shooter appeared from a doorway about 20-30 feet away and pointed a pistol at the witness and fired 5 shots as the witness fled.
none of those 5 shots connected, granted the man was running away but 5 misses at fairly close range on a man sized target.

that is NOT extreme proficiency.

as others have said when the victims are contained and cowed it takes no real skill to kill in large numbers.
 
It was widely reported on tv anyway, that the hospitals tending to the wounded and dead, that many of the deceased had an average of 3 rounds in them, and the wounded only had 1 or 2.

One witnesses account said he was very proficient with the weapon, changing mags quickly and efficiently. How he got that way, who knows. Roomates said he took late night bike rides to nowhere. Maybe he found a place to practice, at least loading, unloading, dryfiring?

Many reports said witnesses said he had massive amounts of ammo magazines attached to his vest, of course we don't know what they consider to be massive amounts.

But, even with 50 people x 3 shots each or 150 total rounds for example, that's only 150 rounds, or 10 magazines of a standard cap (15rd) mag for a G19.

I have a G19 and shoot IDPA. I only have 4 15rd mags, and rarely use them all in a scenario. But we do practices with the cardboard cutouts, and do 3 shots per target w/ 3 targets, changing magazines in between (2 changes using 3 total mags) and do that in 10-15 seconds. Or have done 6 shots to one target, 3 to another, 1 to the third, mag change and two more to the third, as an example scenario, again in 10-15 seconds. Some of the more experienced shooters can do so accurately in less than 10 seconds.

Shooting at paper targets, pausing in between to check shot accuracy, reloading manually a couple magazines at a time, I can go through 100-200 rounds of ammo at a 1 hour or so range trip, especially when I first bought the gun and was testing stuff out.

If I had more magazines and they were all preloaded, I don't care if they were 10 round mags, or 15, it's conceivable that someone could get off that many shots at close range against unarmed people.

It's sad. It's sad that it happened, and sad that they were all unarmed, and unable to meet force with force.

Regards,

Karz
 
I think the man simply read the info about "how to" aim on the internet. And, practiced his technique in private, or in an isolated area. He got "good" (meaning better than average), but not expert. At 10-15 feet, I was hitting targets in the head and chest without any misses after only a month of shooting.
 
Certainly not proficient (he'd only had the guns for a month or so, according to most reports), but he didn't NEED to be proficient; he was shooting each victim multiple times, and, more often than not, someone who's shot says to themself "I guess I'm going to die now".
 
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