Servicios y Aventuras SPP and 40 S&W

[markr6754]

As with many others I picked up 3 bricks of the SyA primers and made up some 40 S&W ammo. Made it to the range for the first time this year. No excuses. Anyway, I brought 2 of my 40s with me for testing. My Springfield EMP and my new Taurus TH40C. The test rounds were really good, accurate, very satisfactory loads. One box was my first trial of WST powder in 40 S&W. I've used it in 45 Auto as well as 9mm...very pleased with how it ran my 165gr JHP from Everglades Ammo.


Anyway, I had zero issues with the TH40C. Every round fired in one trigger pull...just as you'd expect. Good ignition, every round felt like full powder burn, clean cases, no fireballs, and no residual powder or residue. All of the issues were with my Springfield EMP, which has ALWAYS plagued me with light primer strikes. I had about 15% failure on first hammer fall, and 100% success after cocking the hammer and firing again. I didn't examine any of rounds after the first hit, so I don't know if it was a light strike issue, or if I merely finished seating the primer on the first hit. I'm inclined to believe that all of the primers were properly seating, and anvils fully set, as the 100% successful firings in the TH40C were with the same ammo from the same box. I shot a total of 89 rounds, split roughly equally between the Taurus and the Springfield. I don't have any striker fired 40s, so I'll have to run a few batches through my 9mms to continue testing.


As it happened,, I also had a batch I'd made with 700-X, 155gr Berry's FP, and TulAmmo primers. I only shot 10 of them, and one round took 3 hits from my TH40C without going off. I removed that round and it was about as well struck a primer as I've ever seen. Still, I moved it to my light hitting Springfield EMP...and it went off on the first attempt. Based on that alone, I'll take more SyA primers before I'll buy any more Tulas.

 

[LiveLife]

I had about 15% failure on first hammer fall, and 100% success after cocking the hammer and firing again

If primer fires on second strike, it simply wasn't seated all the way down to bottom of primer pocket as first strike seated the primer deeper and second strike ignited the priming compound and we have discussed this numerous times already - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12576848

So seat those primers deep (As Quality Control check, load finished rounds nose down on plastic trays factory rounds come in and run your finger tip over the primers to detect any high/flush primers).

BTW, "primer" on properly seating primers - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12417636

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

..

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

again. I didn't examine any of rounds after the first hit, so I don't know if it was a light strike issue, or if I merely finished seating the primer on the first hit. I'm inclined to believe that all of the primers were properly seating, and anvils fully set, as the 100% successful firings in the TH40C were with the same ammo from the same box.

I tend to agree with this assessment but with the caveat that I wasn’t there and didn’t get to see for myself what the first primer strikes did. I really strongly recommend checking any failure to fire by ejecting and inspecting the entire cartridge.

 

[Blue68f100]

All of the issues were with my Springfield EMP, which has ALWAYS plagued me with light primer strikes. I had about 15% failure on first hammer fall, and 100% success after cocking the hammer and firing again. I didn't examine any of rounds after the first hit, so I don't know if it was a light strike issue, or if I merely finished seating the primer on the first hit

The fix for the gun is to get rid of the Ti FP/spring setup. And go to the std steel setup and your light hits will go away. It takes 3 times the energy to drive a light Ti FP hard enough over the std steel. It's my under standing is Springfield will do the repairs. You be able to get them to send you the parts and do the swap your self.

 

[Charlie98]

it simply wasn't seated all the way down to bottom of primer pocket

I find it interesting that people seem to keep coming up with ignition problems with these particular primers... otherwise, we would be seeing posts about CCI primers misfiring, or Winchester primers, etc.

There has to be something with the SyA primers that is causing this... not just poor reloading technique.

 

[LiveLife]

There has to be something with the SyA primers that is causing this... not just poor reloading technique.

If you read the linked posts, it could be slightly larger Metric sized primer cup like other Metric primers such as Fiocchi, etc.

That's why care must be exercised to ensure they are fully seated in primer pockets or designate them for well used brass with enlarged primer pockets.

If not, just pay more and buy CCI/Winchester/Remington primers.

 

[dannyd]

Just picked up more Arginine primers 179.00 for 3,000 shipped to the door. I have use 1750 so far and I can't tell them from any other primer.

As far as the seating goes they seat just fine for me.

I am not going back to US primers as long as I can get these.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

If you read the linked posts, it could be slightly larger Metric sized primer cup like other Metric primers such as Fiocchi, etc.

That's why care must be exercised to ensure they are fully seated in primer pockets or designate them for well used brass with enlarged primer pockets.

If not, just pay more and buy CCI/Winchester/Remington primers.

With all due respect I think that’s a knee-jerk reaction which ignores the fact that one firearm with the same loads made in the same process had 100% success while the other has a history of light strikes even on CCI/RemChester primers.

 

[dannyd]

The only primers I have had FTF have been New CCI 450's. I gave an AR guy 100 and they didn't work for him ether, but CCI basically told me we didn't know what we were doing.

Posted this before just update for today; I have used a primer or two

Side note; Aguila primers do seat hard for me.

 

[Charlie98]

That's why care must be exercised to ensure they are fully seated in primer pockets or designate them for well used brass with enlarged primer pockets.

If not, just pay more and buy CCI/Winchester/Remington primers.

Well, I guess if I have to cherry-pick my brass to make these things work with any sort of reliability... I guess I will just spring for the CCI's

 

[markr6754]

With all due respect I think that’s a knee-jerk reaction which ignores the fact that one firearm with the same loads made in the same process had 100% success while the other has a history of light strikes even on CCI/RemChester primers.

I didn't think anyone was paying attention. Thanks!

 

[LiveLife]

With all due respect I think that’s a knee-jerk reaction which ignores the fact that one firearm with the same loads made in the same process had 100% success while the other has a history of light strikes even on CCI/RemChester primers.

I think even rcmodel posted that if primer fires on second strike, it's not the issue with the primer but insufficient priming depth to set the anvil tip against the priming compound.

Here's one thread where we discussed seating primers - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/primer-seating-depth.754700/#post-9513910

You can't seat a primer too deep.

My reply:

rcmodel brought up a good point that I didn't address in my post and that is primer cup diameter and primer pocket size.

If you use domestic brands like CCI/Federal/Remington/Winchester along with Brazilian Magtech, you are less likely to have this issue but Italian Fiocchi and Russian Tula/Wolf primers (depending on small or large primer) have slightly larger primer cup diameter that takes more effort to seat them fully.

Problem gets worse when you are seating these primers in once-fired brass with tighter primer pockets. With S&B/RWS brass with even tighter primer pockets, larger primer cups won't seat fully and when you increase force, instead of primer cup seating deeper, primer cup simply flattens as expressed by rcmodel. Depending on the headstamp of the brass, even though you firmly seat these primers, you may not be able to seat them even to flush.

However, these primers with slightly larger diameter cups are good for primer pockets that have been enlarged from multiple firings as to extend the useful life of brass.​

+1 bds!

There is more to primer seating then sometimes meats the eye!

I posted as member "bds" before retirement when I changed to "LiveLife"

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I didn't think anyone was paying attention. Thanks!

I think @Blue68f100 is on to something: lose the Ti firing pin.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well, I guess if I have to cherry-pick my brass to make these things work with any sort of reliability... I guess I will just spring for the CCI's

Or, just avoid firearms with Ti firing pins.
The fact that the OP reports the pistol in question has a history of weak primer strikes using ammo with which his other firearms are 100% reliable, including reloads made with traditionally reliable components, tends to indicate this may be more an engineering or mechanical problem with that firearm than a reloading process or component problem.

 

[Charlie98]

Or, just avoid firearms with Ti firing pins.
The fact that the OP reports the pistol in question has a history of weak primer strikes using ammo with which his other firearms are 100% reliable, including reloads made with traditionally reliable components, tends to indicate this may be more an engineering or mechanical problem with that firearm than a reloading process or component problem.

I don't know anything about Ti firing pins, or the particular firearm the OP has it in... I don't know if it's factory or not. There actually may be 2 issues here... the primers, and the firing pin, assuming the firing pin is aftermarket.

I still stand by my point that if you have to monkey with seating a primer exaaaaaactly right, in some sort of cherry-picked brass... the primer is the problem, cost and origin aside.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I don't know anything about Ti firing pins, or the particular firearm the OP has it in... I don't know if it's factory or not. There actually may be 2 issues here... the primers, and the firing pin, assuming the firing pin is aftermarket.

I still stand by my point that if you have to monkey with seating a primer exaaaaaactly right, in some sort of cherry-picked brass... the primer is the problem, cost and origin aside.

There are two known issues with the Springfield EMP which can cause light/failed primer strikes: barrel to firing pin misalignment and the firing pin design. There are some temporary fixes for the firing pin design flaws - turn the trigger’s overtravel screw to tighten/loosen the connector, clean then lubricate the firing pin using copper or lithium grease, etc. - but they are known to be “picky” about ammo. One of the “gun gurus” at Gun Analyst dot com suggested just sending the gun back to SA for both issues and to have the extractor tuned since those also tend to be problematic.

As a programmer I tend to take a holistic approach to trouble-shooting: consider the entire environment, never assume, and gather as much information as possible about each element in the problem area. It helps avoid biased analysis.

 

[markr6754]

I don't know anything about Ti firing pins, or the particular firearm the OP has it in... I don't know if it's factory or not. There actually may be 2 issues here... the primers, and the firing pin, assuming the firing pin is aftermarket.

I still stand by my point that if you have to monkey with seating a primer exaaaaaactly right, in some sort of cherry-picked brass... the primer is the problem, cost and origin aside.

The firing pin, as well as the firearm itself, is pure factory. In the case of this particular firearm, I started it's life on factory ammo...various flavors...Magtech, Winchester, Herter's, and Fiocchi, the four non-self-defense ammos in stock at Cabela's that day. 135gr to 180gr and the standard in-betweens. Following which I fed it factory primed new brass with my favorite powders and projectiles. All along it has had an issue with light primer strikes...the first strike failure on factory primed brass was greater than 20%, less than 5% with new factory ammo. Pre-primed brass had a 2, 3, even 4 (till I gave up) issue. After 4 strikes that primer dimple was DEEP. In nearly every case it first first time in my Beretta PX4 Storm.

I am not claiming that I couldn't have failed to seat the SyA primers perfectly. I am neither than vain, nor that experienced (5th year). Nonetheless, knowing the anecdotal history of these primers I took extra care to seat them. I made sure to bring 2 of my 40s to this outing, my new Taurus TH40C on its first outing after initial testing, and my problematic, but beloved Springfield EMP.

There are two known issues with the Springfield EMP which can cause light/failed primer strikes: barrel to firing pin misalignment and the firing pin design. There are some temporary fixes for the firing pin design flaws - turn the trigger’s overtravel screw to tighten/loosen the connector, clean then lubricate the firing pin using copper or lithium grease, etc. - but they are known to be “picky” about ammo. One of the “gun gurus” at Gun Analyst dot com suggested just sending the gun back to SA for both issues and to have the extractor tuned since those also tend to be problematic.

As a programmer I tend to take a holistic approach to trouble-shooting: consider the entire environment, never assume, and gather as much information as possible about each element in the problem area. It helps avoid biased analysis.

Thanks for the tips. I ordered new steel firing pins for the EMP, using part numbers I found on another website. Turned out they were too long for the EMP, and my Dremel attempt to shorten one was a catastrophic failure...once too long, now well too short. I am hesitant to get Springfield involved as my 2 previous experiences, with Springfield 911s, left me questioning their competency. Oh, what to do?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The firing pin, as well as the firearm itself, is pure factory. In the case of this particular firearm, I started it's life on factory ammo...various flavors...Magtech, Winchester, Herter's, and Fiocchi, the four non-self-defense ammos in stock at Cabela's that day. 135gr to 180gr and the standard in-betweens. Following which I fed it factory primed new brass with my favorite powders and projectiles. All along it has had an issue with light primer strikes...the first strike failure on factory primed brass was greater than 20%, less than 5% with new factory ammo. Pre-primed brass had a 2, 3, even 4 (till I gave up) issue. After 4 strikes that primer dimple was DEEP. In nearly every case it first first time in my Beretta PX4 Storm.

I am not claiming that I couldn't have failed to seat the SyA primers perfectly. I am neither than vain, nor that experienced (5th year). Nonetheless, knowing the anecdotal history of these primers I took extra care to seat them. I made sure to bring 2 of my 40s to this outing, my new Taurus TH40C on its first outing after initial testing, and my problematic, but beloved Springfield EMP.


Thanks for the tips. I ordered new steel firing pins for the EMP, using part numbers I found on another website. Turned out they were too long for the EMP, and my Dremel attempt to shorten one was a catastrophic failure...once too long, now well too short. I am hesitant to get Springfield involved as my 2 previous experiences, with Springfield 911s, left me questioning their competency. Oh, what to do?

First suggestion is to request a free replacement firing pin from SA since they have acknowledged the problem and offer the parts. Second, try the thorough cleaning and lubrication suggested by Gun Analyst. Other readers have reported it does help as a temporary fix. Also check the trigger over-travel setting. Third, don’t give up. It’s a good gun, it just has some manufacturing problems to work through.
My wife has a .380ACP 911 so I understand your concerns.

 

[Charlie98]

As a programmer I tend to take a holistic approach to trouble-shooting: consider the entire environment, never assume, and gather as much information as possible about each element in the problem area. It helps avoid biased analysis.

There actually may be 2 issues here... the primers, and the firing pin, assuming the firing pin is aftermarket.

Not biased at all. I've seen numerous threads, not just here at THR, on these primers... they are suspect.

Nonetheless, knowing the anecdotal history of these primers I took extra care to seat them.

It sounds like you did your due diligence.

I've been handloading for over 30 years... I've never had an issue with primers not firing, and that includes when I knew they were not seated fully to the bottom of the pocket (a specific instance I had with my .41MAG brass, and carbon fouled pockets.) I HAVE had issues with defective primers... Winchester in my case... so my suspicion is not based on, again, cost or origin.. Granted everyone's particular experience is anecdotal.

 

[dannyd]

I don't own any semiautomatic anything, so all my experience is with revolvers, contenders, encore's and single shot rifles or bolt guns.

I use mixed brass and like I said the only primers that have failed to fire in 34 years are the CCI 450's in a bolt gun with factory firing pin spring.

So, if you are having a problem with Auto's I am definitely not your guy.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Not biased at all. I've seen numerous threads, not just here at THR, on these primers... they are suspect.




It sounds like you did your due diligence.

I've been handloading for over 30 years... I've never had an issue with primers not firing, and that includes when I knew they were not seated fully to the bottom of the pocket (a specific instance I had with my .41MAG brass, and carbon fouled pockets.) I HAVE had issues with defective primers... Winchester in my case... so my suspicion is not based on, again, cost or origin.. Granted everyone's particular experience is anecdotal.

I am referring to the analysis method, not just this one instance. A programmer who assumes every bug report is user error - an ID10t or CBU error - is a very bad programmer and needs to find another career. Sometimes it is the user and sometimes it’s a combination of hardware, firmware and software. A good programmer looks at the entire environment with an unjaundiced eye and makes no assumptions. Just go through the process and look for potential areas of concern. And remain calm.