Shattered dreams...

[BrokenPaw]

So I was at the Bealeton, VA, gun show yesterday, looking to turn my Desert Eagle[0] Mark XIX .44 into something, you know, practical. I currently carry a Beretta 96 Brigadier as my main CCW (I'm a big enough guy that it's actually quite proportional and comfortable). But I'm not really all that happy with .40S&W, after having shot quite a bit of it. So I was hoping to pick up a nice .45 for carry.

The possible candidates were: Beretta 8045 Cougar, H&K USP (perhaps C, perhaps not), and Sig P220.[1]

The Beretta was on the list because, well, I already carry a Beretta, and I like the feel of the 92/96 series, so I was hoping the 8000 series would follow suit, and because the manual of arms would be the same, so I wouldn't need to re-train myself with respect to habitual operation of the safety lever and so forth. But the Cougar just felt...wrong in my hands. Granted, I only played with the 9mm version, because I didn't even see any in .45s on the tables. But still. So the 8045 got scratched from the list.

The H&K was on the list because my sister carries a USPC in .40, and she loves it to death, and it shot very nicely when I played with it. Also a friend of mine has a USP in .45, and it proved to be an exceptionally well-built gun, even in the face of his (accidental) way-hot handloads.[2] But I played with one yesterday, and I discovered that I can't stand the little mag-release widget thingummy under the trigger guard. It's fine at the range and stuff, in a no-stress situation, when shifting your grip to reload is acceptable, but it'd suck in a self-defense situation. Scratch the H&K.

The P220 was on the list because of what I'd heard about Sig from various and asundry people here. I played with one at some length yesterday, and it felt lovely in my hand. And when I drew a sight picture with it, it felt totally natural and wonderful and everything. And the mag-release button was at least a quarter inch forward from where my thumb could reach without shifting my grip. Dang. Scratch the Sig.

It's not like I have exceptionally small hands, or anything. Actually, I have it on reasonable authority that they're fairly large[3]. And the .45ACP round is pretty short; why the heck are these guns made with grips so long that you need big spider-looking hands to operate something as useful as a mag release? My Beretta 96 has a mag catch in Just The Right Place. Guess I'll be sticking with it for a while...

-BP

[0] Yes, yes, I know. But I was young and silly when I bought it.
[1] All of y'all 1911-type-people can stop right now; I don't like the feel of the things, and further proselytizing will force me to stick my fingers in my ears and shout "la la la la la" ad nauseum.
[2] All of that stuff about a .45 lifting you off your feet? Maybe not. But it did make him lose his balance and step back from the firing line.
[3] Curb your prurience.

 

[No4Mk1]

Just one comment.

But I played with one yesterday, and I discovered that I can't stand the little mag-release widget thingummy under the trigger guard. It's fine at the range and stuff, in a no-stress situation, when shifting your grip to reload is acceptable, but it'd suck in a self-defense situation. Scratch the H&K.

The mag release on the HK is fantastic once you know how to use it and get used to it. If used properly it requires no change in the firing grip at all. Rather than operating it with the thumb of the firing hand, use the middle finger of the firing hand to actuate the lever on the reverse side. It is lightning fast and allows you to keep a firm grip on the firearm at all times during mag changes.

I'm not saying that you may not have other reasons for liking other pistols better, but you should not let the mag release on the HK discourage you. Learn how to use it and you will love it.

I personally like the USP style release best, followed by the Euro-style heel releases as both forms allow you to keep a firm firing grip at all times during mag changes.

HTH!

 

[Shake]

BrokenPaw,

I beleive I fall into the same category as you. . . I'm 6'4" and have what are considered to be large hands, but have a hard time finding handguns that allow me to operate the mag release without changing my grip.

I have three handguns that I can reach the release easily. One is a Beretta Elite II with and extended mag release, the others are two USPs, a compact and full sized.

The trick for me with the H&Ks is to use the index (or middle finger) of the shooting hand to activate the magazine release. I've actually gotten to where it feels natural to use both the finger and my thumb and can do so quickly. I like it better than a "conventional" mag release now.

Anyway, worth a try. . .

Shake

 

[Black Snowman]

I like the mag release on the HKs as well. And as to why they are out of reach on most firearms, that's intentional. Don't want to accidently get a death grip and relase the mag in high-stress situation. So, they move it just out of reach.

I think this makes the HK release brilliant. It's "out of reach" but with a little technique is easily operated.

Of course I traded off the only HK I had for a rifle, but that's mainly because it didn't fit a "nitche" I had and I didn't have any emotional attachment to it.

I would eventually like to get an HK full size, my old one was a compact.

 

[MoNsTeR]

I have NEVER encountered a gun whose mag release I could reach without shifting my grip. Glock, SIG, S&W, Ruger, Walther, H&K, CZ, 1911, take your pick (okay, MAYBE I can reach on a Kahr). So, I learned to shift my grip quickly and deftly. I can now hit the release on any gun with an actual button, USP and Walthers are still impracticable for me.

 

[George Hill]

Given your story, I'd run with the Couger. You are already familiar with the operation and feel... you will hit the ground running with it, and you are not giving anything up by not selecting the others. The Couger is very under rated in my opinion. I like everything about it... but it did take me some time to get used to the rotating barrel, but it works just fine... accurate... smooth... it's a good gun.
But if you are scratching these guns off your list... You are wanting to look at something different.

You really need to take a good look at the CZ-97B.

 

[Black Snowman]

Oh, something I forgot to mention in my 1st posting. What's impractical about a DE .44 Mag? I got the .44 Mag barrel for my .50 AE to make it cheaper to shoot.

Ya, ya, I know, it's a range only gun. Of course here in KS the range is all i've got so the DE isn't any less practical than any other gun I own and a lot of fun to shoot. Come to think of it I don't have any "practical" handguns.

 

[Kamicosmos]

Another vote for the CZ-97. I just got one, and it is very similar in feel to my Beretta 96. I'm another Big Hand guy, and I have no problems with the mag release...just like the 96. And size wise, it's just about the same dimensions as the 96, so carrying it should feel about the same.

I wouldn't write off the .40 as a defensive caliber. Sounds to me like you're at the same place I was about a month ago.


Admit it...you just want a .45!

(And for what it's worth, don't loose the Eagle. I love mine. You'll regret getting rid of it!)

 

[BrokenPaw]

I'll have to try that middle-finger mag-release thing with my sister's HK.

I like the position of the Beretta 96 mag release because it's within reach of my thumb, but it's not exactly under it, so a death-grip won't make me drop mag at the wrong time.

Oh, something I forgot to mention in my 1st posting. What's impractical about a DE .44 Mag? I got the .44 Mag barrel for my .50 AE to make it cheaper to shoot.

Black Snowman, it's impractical mostly because, well, I just never shot the thing. It was fun, but I found myself shooting my carry guns a lot more often, and it was a pain to drag the DE to the range, because it weighed about 5 pounds, and enough ammo for it weighed another 700 or so .

George, I've tabled the idea about re-arming myself, for the moment; I'm gonna stick with the Beretta 96 until I actually get a chance to play with a Cougar (and, if everyone here is right about the HK mag-release trick, an HK also) at the range.

Also, my available gun budget somehow managed to transmogrify itself into a Bushmaster M17 Bullpup when I wasn't looking.

Thanks, all!

-BP

 

[N3rday]

Well, I wouldn't worry about the magazine catch too much, god forbid you change your grip. Don't let something minor like that keep you from a gun you can shoot well .
Plus, in a self defense situation you probably won't need to reload, seeing as your gun has a minimum of 10 rounds in it

 

[BerettaNut92]

While Cougars are too. Ugly to be used in the same sentence as 92, Ernest Langdon DOES work on them, AFAIK.

 

[clubsoda22]

Interesting, being left handed i operate the mag release on all of my pistols with my index finger. I seem to have an easier time doing this than righty's using their thumb...

 

[GySgt]

Just get the USP Compact in .45 and be HAPPY !!!!!

 

[Waste of Money]

I would take the one that fits my hand best and aligns itself when brought to a firing position. Learning how to drop a mag can be easily learned. Especially if you love the way a gun shoots/feels/looks and makes you look like a good shot.

 

[10-Ring]

Yeah, I guess it's a bit of a secret using your index or middle finger to activate the mag relase on the USP/USPc. It's really very intuitive once you figure it out. Try it & you'll be very happy w/ the USP or USPc 45!

 

[buzz_knox]

I use the middle finger approach on my HKs (M13 and USPc) and it works like a charm. Only problem is that after developing a habit of using my thumb to release, I'm concerned about what I would do during a stress situation.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

before you start sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalala", what configurations of 1911 did you try?


were they all arched mainspring housing guns? long triggers? flat mainspring housing guns? short triggers?

 

[Missouri Mule]

Have you looked seriously at the full sized Glocks?

 

[BigG]

{I}have a hard time finding handguns that allow me to operate the mag release without changing my grip.

I believe this is INTENTIONAL as who wants to drop the mag out of the gun during a tight moment?

 

[BrokenPaw]

before you start sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalala", what configurations of 1911 did you try?

<fingers>LALALALALALA!</fingers> Oh. Ahem. Sorry. There's always one of you 1911 people out there, isn't there?

Frankly I couldn't tell you; I don't know enough about 1911s to give a decent answer. I've tried various other shooters' guns while at the range. Some of them were 1911-style, some were HK, Glock, and so forth. ::shrug:: I might just be being bigoted; my gut reaction is that anything that gets so much religious fervor whipped up about it is probably not as good as its missionaries say it is. (Which, Missouri Mule, might bear upon your question as well. )

Actually, I have played with a couple of full-sized Glocks. Nothing in .45, but a buddy of mine shoots .40 and 9mm and is a fully-initiated Glock Zombie.

Hmm. I guess I'm going to have to Do The Right Thing, now, and go try some 1911s and Glocks and CZs at the range. ::checks wallet:: Dang, the lady-wife is gonna be pissed...

-BP

 

[Aikibiker]

Unless my memory box is on the blink again, I am pretty sure you can switch the magazine release on you 92/96 series Beretta so that you can operate it with the index finger of your firing hand.

You could try out the middle finger trick that way for free. If it works for you, great go out and buy any pistol with an ambidextrous magazine catch you want. If it doesn't, you aren't out any money.

 

[Daniel T]

I might just be being bigoted; my gut reaction is that anything that gets so much religious fervor whipped up about it is probably not as good as its missionaries say it is.

I dunno, sometimes things really are just that good.

Like 1911s.

 

[Black Snowman]

I was aprehensive about 1911s for a long time. I rented a Kimber Stainless Target II at my local range and decided they were good guns. Maybe not deserving of all the hype but certainly a good gun.

When I was first shopping for handguns they didn't fit me and the grip safety felt weird but now I've got a Delta Elite coming from a fellow THR member Who knows, I might even get one in .45 ACP . . . nah, after shooting Kamicosmos' CZ-97B I think that will be my 1st .45, just too nice and too accurate.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

make sure you try:

an arched mainspring housing 1911 with short trigger.

an arched mainspring housing 1911 with long trigger

a flat mainspring housing gun with long

a flat mainspring housing with short.

there are also other things like thin grip panels and whatnot, but the mainspring housing and trigger make the most difference.

 

[Navy joe]

How about a Para-Ord? They're nice and big and don't feel very 1911ish. !4 rounds of .45 in the mag is a nice touch too.