Shipping a rifle

[gunforhire96]

My wife's grandfather who faught in WWII is giving me his M-1 Carbine, original from WWII not a copycat. The only problem is he lives in Baltimore MD, and I live near Seattle WA. We are not going out there anytime soon.

Now I have read that depending on the shipping service you could send the rifle UPS, or FedEx, or even USPS with out an FFL.

Is this true?

Trying to avoid FFL fees.

 

[nalioth]

You will have to receive the rifle through an FFL.

He can't legally "give it to you" w/o the services of an FFL (since you live in another state), either.


Shipping a gun - THR

 

[mgkdrgn]

-UNLESS- you personally know an FFL that will accept a shipment from a non-FFL, the -easiest- way to do this deal will be to have an FFL on both ends.

IF you can find an FFL there that will accept a shipment from a non-FFL, he can fill you in on the procedure he needs to have followed by the party in MD.

The party in MD -CAN NOT- ship directly to you, it MUST go through an FFL on your end.

 

[Oro]

The cheapest way to do this is to have him put a copy of his driver's license in the box, and mail it to a local FFL in/near Seattle. Postage is about $25 probably. Then the FFL here logs it in and transfers it to you for $20 or so. No need for an FFL on his end - long guns can be shipped ground service or priority mail by anyone. See the sticky above that nalioth linked. $45 total cost on both ends.

If you need a local FFL to handle this for you for a modest fee, pm or better yet email me and I can recommend some in the Seattle area.

 

[nalioth]

-UNLESS- you personally know an FFL that will accept a shipment from a non-FFL, the -easiest- way to do this deal will be to have an FFL on both ends.

I really am not sure why this always comes up.

It is the rare exception (mostly confined to certain states) that an FFL holder won't receive from private individuals.

I'll go on and say it's the dealer's "business decision" to not accept such, as the laws say that an individual can ship a firearm ANYwhere in the USA so long as it goes to an FFL holder.

Postage is about $25 probably.

He can send it parcel post - insured for less than that.

 

[mgkdrgn]

It is the rare exception (mostly confined to certain states) that an FFL holder won't receive from private individuals.

The problem is that if =anything= goes wrong with the deal, the FFL =can not= return the firearm to the individual. The sender is usually pissed off that the deal botched, and then double pissed that the FFL can't ship the gun back, and that they now will have to get an FFL involved on their end to get their own gun back. (and, of course, they expect the FFL to put up with all this horsehockey for free, including the return shipping)

The FFL also has no way to confirm the source of the firearm other than a scan of a drivers license. Whose drivers license? Who the hell knows? Address current? Who the hell knows?

 

[cane]

The problem is that if =anything= goes wrong with the deal, the FFL =can not= return the firearm to the individual. The sender is usually pissed off that the deal botched, and then double pissed that the FFL can't ship the gun back, and that they now will have to get an FFL involved on their end to get their own gun back. (and, of course, they expect the FFL to put up with all this horsehockey for free, including the return shipping)

The FFL also has no way to confirm the source of the firearm other than a scan of a drivers license. Whose drivers license? Who the hell knows? Address current? Who the hell knows?

If that's the case, how can the manufacturer return a firearm directly to you that you have sent in for repair?

 

[bonza]

If gunforhire96 had a friend with a C&R FFL would it be ok for the grandfather to ship to him?

 

[dogtown tom]

bonza: If gunforhire96 had a friend with a C&R FFL would it be ok for the grandfather to ship to him?

Absolutely not. Never. Ever.

A Curio & Relic license is for collecting purposes only (YOUR collection). Doing transfers for your buddies with a C&R is "engaging in the business" and will get you a visit from ATF. (only 01, 02, and 07 FFL's may transfer firearms to others)

 

[Oro]

Absolutely not. Never. Ever.

Yes, and while this does not pertain to this case, it's worth stressing that C&R licensees do not have the privilege of using the USPS as a licensee, even for themselves. They are stuck overnighting handguns or going through another FFL like anyone else when sending guns not C&R eligible. The USPS regulations state flatly it is for manufacturers and "bona fide" dealers. C&R's, unfortunately, do not count. This is on the PS Form 1508, which all FFLs fill out when shipping a handgun.

 

[dogtown tom]

mgkdrgn Quote:

The problem is that if =anything= goes wrong with the deal, the FFL =can not= return the firearm to the individual. The sender is usually pissed off that the deal botched, and then double pissed that the FFL can't ship the gun back, and that they now will have to get an FFL involved on their end to get their own gun back. (and, of course, they expect the FFL to put up with all this horsehockey for free, including the return shipping)

And it's doubtful a dealer would take it back either.

Few dealers will accept such a return. Hey, they SOLD a gun. It's NOT their problem the buyer can't pass NICS.

As long as an FFL or drivers license copy is included with the shipment it's good to go. No FFL or DL, no transfer until I get one.

If a problem were to occur where the buyer is denied by NICS it is HIS responsibility. I would be happy to list his gun on GunBroker for a reasonable fee. If I have to store the firearm while he appeals his NICS denial then he may also incur storage fees. In any event the gun is PAID FOR. The original seller does not want it back. It is the responsibility of the buyer to know whether he will pass NICS or not.

 

[EOD Guy]

The problem is that if =anything= goes wrong with the deal, the FFL =can not= return the firearm to the individual. The sender is usually pissed off that the deal botched, and then double pissed that the FFL can't ship the gun back, and that they now will have to get an FFL involved on their end to get their own gun back. (and, of course, they expect the FFL to put up with all this horsehockey for free, including the return shipping)

The FFL also has no way to confirm the source of the firearm other than a scan of a drivers license. Whose drivers license? Who the hell knows? Address current? Who the hell knows?

If that's the case, how can the manufacturer return a firearm directly to you that you have sent in for repair?

The return of a firearm directly to the owner from repair at a gunsmith or manufacturer is specifically allowed in the regulation.

 

[nalioth]

The return of a firearm directly to the owner from repair at a gunsmith or manufacturer is specifically allowed in the regulation.

The return of an unsold gun is also covered under that regulation.

However, the FFL holding the gun will probably not ship it back for free.

 

[mgkdrgn]

If that's the case, how can the manufacturer return a firearm directly to you that you have sent in for repair?

Different type of FFL with different rules. (Mfg/repair -vs- seller)

 

[nalioth]

Different type of FFL with different rules. (Mfg/repair -vs- seller)

Another misconception.

ANY FFL 01 can repair guns. "Repair" covers 'fancycoating', parkerizing, blind pinning a muzzle device, etc.

There is no separate FFL for "sales only" or "gunsmithing".


You are thinking of the "manufacturing" of firearms, which requires an FFL 07

 

[mgkdrgn]

And it's doubtful a dealer would take it back either.

Few dealers will accept such a return. Hey, they SOLD a gun. It's NOT their problem the buyer can't pass NICS.

True enough. Now the FFL in question is holding a gun (on his books) he can't sell (as his own), can't send back (seller has his $ and doesn't want it back), and can't turn over to the "new" owner.

I guess his only recourse, if he feels like being a "good guy" about it, would be to offer to try and sell it for the fellow who didn't pass the NCIS check?

I guess technically the "new" owner owns the gun, but can't take possession of it? But that "owner" will never show on the FFLs book, as he never took posession, and hence never transfered back to the FFL. Somehow, that just doesn't seem "kosher".

How does the FFL get out of this mess?

 

[rondog]

You're getting a genuine WWII vintage M1 Carbine for free? Pay the FFL fees, ya cheap sonuva.....

 

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by EOD Guy
The return of a firearm directly to the owner from repair at a guns,mith or manufacturer is specifically allowed in the regulation.

The return of an unsold gun is also covered under that regulation.[]

Yes, it is, but the regulation also requires a 4473 for return, other than repair or replacement, which requires an FFL on the other end.

 

[nalioth]

[quote='EOD Guy"]Yes, it is, but the regulation also requires a 4473 for return, other than repair or replacement, which requires an FFL on the other end.[/quote] Can you quote that, please?

According to your logic, a firearm MUST be repaired or replaced to be sent back to the original owner w/o a 4473 on the owners end. Do you honestly think that if you send your firearm out for a duracoat job or something, and then cancel the job before it's started, you can't get your gun back w/o filling out a 4473?

What happens to those anal "worry about every little thing" people that send their perfectly good firearms back to the factory, whereupon they're inspected and returned 'as-is' to the owner?


AFAIK, so long as the FFL holder puts in his/her book "returned to owner", it's all good, if:

• The FFL holder hasn't 'taken it on consignment'.
• The FFL holder hasn't transferred it to anyone else on a 4473.

 

[EOD Guy]

Originally Posted by 'EOD Guy"
Yes, it is, but the regulation also requires a 4473 for return, other than repair or replacement, which requires an FFL on the other end.

Can you quote that, please?

According to your logic, a firearm MUST be repaired or replaced to be sent back to the original owner w/o a 4473 on the owners end. Do you honestly think that if you send your firearm out for a duracoat job or something, and then cancel the job before it's started, you can't get your gun back w/o filling out a 4473?

Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant was that it must be sent for repair or customizing. I didn't mean the job actually had to be completed.

The regulation allows direct return to the sender of firearms sent for repair or customizing. No 4473 is required. The regulation does not allow direct return to an unlicensed person for firearms shipped for sale when the sale falls through. In that case a 4473 must be filled out at a dealer in order for the original shipper to receive the firearm.

Here is the applicable part of the regulation. Note the bolded part.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart I_Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures

Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may
ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other
provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or
licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that
person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type.
See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship
a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose,
and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed
collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person
the firearm curio or relic.

That part of 27CFR allows return to the original sender. Now for the part telling when a 4473 is required.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart H_Records

Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.

(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any
firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473:
Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm
delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing
when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

The above part requires a 4473 for return of the firearm EXCEPT when it was originally shipped for repair or customizing. If the firearm was sent for any other reason, a 4473 is required for return. This is also the reason that consignment and pawned firearms cannot be returned to the owner without a 4473.

 

[Jim K]

The best way is for the intended recipient to contact a licensed dealer in his own area, and work out the terms and the fee to be charged. The dealer will then send the shipper a copy of his FFL.

The shipper should make two more copies, one for the carrier and one to keep for his records. There is no need for a dealer's services on the shipper's end, but it might be less costly (especially for a handgun) and easier for the shipper.

Jim

 

[mgkdrgn]

The above part requires a 4473 for return of the firearm EXCEPT when it was originally shipped for repair or customizing. If the firearm was sent for any other reason, a 4473 is required for return. This is also the reason that consignment and pawned firearms cannot be returned to the owner without a 4473.

Yup ... that is the way it was explained to me about two weeks ago in my FFL interview with the BATFE agent.