Shipping guns to myself?

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twoblink

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I use to live in Reno,NV; now I live in Houston, TX.

My guns are all still in Reno. I had contemplated driving there to pick up my guns and then back... My friend who's house my guns are located at said that he was told by UPS that shipping the guns back to me would be a felony..

Which I'm assuming might be true if they were his guns. But they are mine. So if I were to pay for the guns to be shipped back to me; is that OK??

USPS? UPS? Fed-Ex?

Quite a few of them along with case; I don't need them right away; so bulk shipping rates? I'm more concerned with the legality and logistics.. And there is slim info online...
 
YOU can ship your guns to YOU, but your buddy is not YOU and would need to ship to an FFL.

Depending on how many guns we are talking about, you need to sit down and run the numbers to see if driving/shipping is the most economical choice.

If we are talking handguns that is a whole nuther kettle of fish, as FedEx / UPS insist they go overnight. An FFL can ship them via USPS ... but not an individual.
 
twoblink said:
...My guns are all still in Reno. I had contemplated driving there to pick up my guns and then back... My friend who's house my guns are located at said that he was told by UPS that shipping the guns back to me would be a felony..

Which I'm assuming might be true if they were his guns. But they are mine. So if I were to pay for the guns to be shipped back to me; is that OK??....
Click to expand...
Giving guns to someone in another State to store for you is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be address by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

  1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).

  2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.

  3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.

    • Possession means:
      1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
      Click to expand...

    • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.

      Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):


    • Let's look at the statutes:

      • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...

        (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
        Click to expand...

      • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...

        (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;
        Click to expand...

    • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
      ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...
      Click to expand...

  4. Is there no way to store your gun in another State?

    • Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.

    • One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.

    • That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.

      Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):
      6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

      Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​
      Click to expand...

  5. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.
 
My Guns Shipped to Me?

Long story short, Buddy ships my guns to me through a FFL where Buddy lives, to my chosen FFL, in the state in which I live (under federal law). Also, check state and local laws on each end.

Or, why don't you just go get your guns and haul them back yourself?

And, why in the world did you leave them there in the first place?
Don't you love your guns? How could you stand to be apart from them?
 
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Mr. Ettin, that was hugely informative/enlightening and you've done a big service in possibly saving some people from a heap of trouble. Thank you.
 
Gun Master said:
...why don't you just go get your guns and haul them back yourself?...
Click to expand...
The problem with that is that the guns are in the possession of a resident of Nevada. So if a resident of Texas takes possession of the guns, whether by picking them up in person from the resident of Nevada having possession of them, or having them shipped to him, it would still in either case be a violation or GCA68.

  • 18 USC 922(a)(3) provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
    Click to expand...
    So --

    • If the OP goes to Nevada and picks up the guns, he is violating the law by transporting into his State of residence guns he obtained outside his State of residence.

    • If the OP has the guns shipped to him by the Nevada resident who has possession of them, he is violating the law by receiving in his State of residence guns he obtained from outside his State of residence.

  • And 18 USC 922(a)(5) provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;
    Click to expand...
    So --

    • If the Nevada resident who has possession of the guns hands the guns to the OP, he has violated the law by transferring or giving the guns to someone he knows is not a resident of Nevada.

    • If the Nevada resident who has possession of the guns ships the guns directly to the OP, he has violated the law by transferring or delivering the guns to someone he knows is not a resident of Nevada.
 
Gimme My Guns

If "The Buddy" is "in possession" of "his" guns, and denies him access, he would be a thief, would he not? And, his Buddy is not actually "in possession" (which translates "owns"), but in reality is a caretaker of said guns.

FFL to FFL, in a legal online purchase, would be "illegal", according to your above premise, IMHO.

Oh, and who's going to take him to court, if he goes to gets "his" guns, if he happened to leave them behind, and has a bill of sale for each one (or not)?

As far as "outside that state", he and the Buddy were "inside" the same state, when the "goones" (historical ancient spelling) were originally purchased or otherwise obtained, prior to the owner's departure from the original state.
 
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I understand having someone store his handguns complicated matters for the OP.

May I ask, for clarification:

if he were a resident of NV and intends to relocate to TX, would it be OK under federal law to:

  • retain possession of them at all times while traveling between those states, or
  • take them himself to UPS or FedEx, shipping them to himself, with no one other than himself accepting delivery from the carrier
?

If not, I can find no way to transport handguns between states without using the services of a FFL. Is my understanding correct?
 
Gun Master said:
If "The Buddy" is "in possession" of "his" guns, and denies him access, he would be a thief, would he not? And, his Buddy is not actually "in possession" (which translates "owns"), but in reality is a caretaker of said guns....
Click to expand...
The federal statutes say what they say. If the "buddy" refused to transfer the guns to the OP in a legal manner, he could be charged with theft or conversion. But he doesn't have to agree to transfer the guns to the OP in a manner which would make both him and the OP guilty of multiple, federal felonies.

Gun Master said:
...FFL to FFL, in a legal online purchase, would be "illegal", according to your above premise, IMHO....
Click to expand...
The opinions of the ATF trump yours. See the following ATF FAQs:

  1. To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

    A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions....

    Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check....
    Click to expand...

  2. How may an unlicensed person receive a firearm in his or her State that he or she purchased from an out–of–State source?

    An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out–of–State source, provided the transfer takes place through a Federal firearms licensee in his or her State of residence.
    Click to expand...

You really should have tried doing some research before forming an opinion.

Gun Master said:
...Oh, and who's going to take him to court, if he goes to gets "his" guns, if he happened to leave them behind, and has a bill of sale for each one (or not)?...
Click to expand...
And apparently you don't understand the difference between getting away with committing a crime and doing things in compliance with the law.

Gun Master said:
....As far as "outside that state", he and the Buddy were "inside" the same state,...
Click to expand...
At the time the OP left the guns with his friend, both he and his friend were residents of Nevada. Under Nevada law there are no formalities required for one resident to transfer a gun to another resident. So, at the time, the OP legally transferred his guns to his friend.

Now his friend is a resident of Nevada and the OP is a resident of Texas. So now federal law requires that the possession of a gun from one to the other go thorough and FFL.

v35 said:
...if he were a resident of NV and intends to relocate to TX, would it be OK under federal law to:

  • retain possession of them at all times while traveling between those states, or
  • take them himself to UPS or FedEx, shipping them to himself, with no one other than himself accepting delivery from the carrier
?....
Click to expand...

If you move from one State to another, you can certainly take your guns with you. The ATF concurs:
May a person who is relocating out-of-State move firearms with other household goods?

Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence. If using a moving company, the person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from ATF before such firearms may be moved interstate. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.
Click to expand...

As far as shipping guns to oneself by FedEx or UPS, it would apparently be legal, but the last time I looked both FedEx and UPS would, under the terms of their shipping policies, accept a gun for shipment by a non-licensee only if it were being shipped to an FFL.
 
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Gun Master said:
...FFL to FFL, in a legal online purchase, would be "illegal", according to your above premise, IMHO....
Click to expand...
It occurred to me that the confusion might be caused by the fact that the OP's question involves only the interstate transfer of guns left in storage with someone. So only the portions of the relevant statutes addressing a person personally taking possession of guns from a resident of another State or having guns shipped to him directly by a resident of another State were quoted.

But upon reading the entirety of the relevant statutes it becomes clear that someone in State A can ship of deliver guns to an FFL in State B for transfer through the FFL to a resident of State B as recently described in this post:
Frank Ettin said:
...
  • Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  • In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  • There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  • Here's what the statutes say:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

    (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ...
    Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Thank you Frank, I have a follow-up question that may interest the OP, or it may be completely unrelated, I don't know.

I recently sent a gun in to an out-of-state manufacturer for a warranty repair. The manufacturer created a UPS "call ticket" (unfortunately I don't recall the exact terminology) that was used to create a shipping label. I packed the complete gun in a box using my packaging, in compliance with UPS's instructions, and UPS picked it up.

I tracked the shipment. Upon the box's arrival at the manufacturer, I was surprised that its tracking information said "returned to shipper". This caused me concern, thinking I did something terribly wrong. So, I called the manufacturer who patiently explained to me that when shipping firearms they were considered "the shipper" - not me. "Returned to shipper" is exactly what was supposed to occur, because they were the "shipper".

Of course I found this confusing, but is that a technique manufacturers typically use to avoid questions regarding exactly who is in possession of a firearm, and who isn't?

To reiterate, I realize the OP's situation is muddied by having had someone else effectively take possession of it.
 
Frank Ettin said:
As far as shipping guns to oneself by FedEx or UPS, it would apparently be legal, but the last time I looked both FedEx and UPS would, under the terms of their shipping policies, accept a gun for shipment by a non-licensee only if it were being shipped to an FFL.
Click to expand...

Will/ has the Post Office ship firearms to yourself and would you need any documentation?
 
Hi, Frank,

Under that strict definition of "transfer", I would seem to be violating federal law if a friend visits me from another state and I let him even hold one of my guns. I have never heard of that being a violation as long as I was present and there was no intent to transfer ownership.

It would also appear to be a violation for a dealer in another state to let me examine a gun at his shop, since that would put me in "possession" of the gun. Again, I have never heard "transfer" interpreted that way, and I doubt that was the intent of the law.

Jim
 
Under that strict definition of "transfer", I would seem to be violating federal law if a friend visits me from another state and I let him even hold one of my guns. I have never heard of that being a violation as long as I was present and there was no intent to transfer ownership.

It would also appear to be a violation for a dealer in another state to let me examine a gun at his shop, since that would put me in "possession" of the gun. Again, I have never heard "transfer" interpreted that way, and I doubt that was the intent of the law.
Click to expand...

I doubt that mere storage on another's property is meets the definition of a "transfer". Had he put them in a storage unit, before looking for a new home, in order to go back and get them he would have to do a transfer from himself at his old address, to himself at his new address through an FFL according to this interpretation.
 
Jim K said:
Under that strict definition of "transfer", I would seem to be violating federal law if a friend visits me from another state and I let him even hold one of my guns. I have never heard of that being a violation as long as I was present and there was no intent to transfer ownership.

It would also appear to be a violation for a dealer in another state to let me examine a gun at his shop, since that would put me in "possession" of the gun. Again, I have never heard "transfer" interpreted that way, and I doubt that was the intent of the law.
Click to expand...
First, the word "transfer" means what it means; and it absolutely is not limited to a change in ownership. It has to do with a change of possession, and possession is about physical control, not legal title.

I've set out definitions of "possession" and "transfer" in post 3. And those, or similar, definitions are likely to be used by a court in applying the statutes as outlined in Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...
Click to expand...

Note also, that the applicable statutes, as quoted in full in post 10 address the loaning of guns, not just sale or gifting.

Jim K said:
...I doubt that was the intent of the law.
Click to expand...
TimSr said:
I doubt that mere storage....
Click to expand...
What you might believe or you might doubt is absolutely worthless when trying to predict how a court would apply the law. And that is always the issue when considering whether some course of conduct is or is not in compliance with the law, or does or does not expose one to legal liability. The judge doesn't care what you think or doubt.

TimSr said:
...mere storage on another's property is meets the definition of a "transfer". Had he put them in a storage unit, before looking for a new home, in order to go back and get them he would have to do a transfer from himself at his old address,...
Click to expand...
We're not talking about storing something on someone's property. We're talking about giving someone actual, physical possession, i. e., dominion and control, of something. And that is a transfer as the word "transfer" is defined.

If the guns are in a locked storage locker or locked safe or case or sealed package to which no one else has access, one can at least argue that there is no transfer because no one else has physical possession, i. e., dominion and control or purposeful use.

That is, at least, a better argument than your subjective doubt.
 
v35 said:
....is that a technique manufacturers typically use to avoid questions regarding exactly who is in possession of a firearm, and who isn't?...
Click to expand...
No, it's because the manufacturer prepared the shipping label and is paying -- and is thus considered the "shipper" in the carrier's system.
 
Debunked Legal Inaccuracies and/or Inequalities

Hey, what happened to helping a brother "The High Roader" out?
It's called "The Good Old American Way" !

How about let's helping the OP ?

They are his guns. He's asking for help. Let's do it. OK?
 
Gun Master said:
Hey, what happened to helping a brother "The High Roader" out?
It's called "The Good Old American Way" !

How about let's helping the OP ?

They are his guns. He's asking for help. Let's do it. OK?
Click to expand...

By pointing out that the legal why for the OP to get his guns would be for his friend to ship them to an FFL in Texas to do the transfer, he now knows the legal way to manage things.

Knowing how to comply with the law helps him and his friend avoid committing a federal crime punishable by up to five years in federal prison (together with a lifetime loss of gun rights).

Or are you suggesting that we help him commit a crime, exposing both he and his friend to federal prison and making us felons as accessories.
 
Please See Posting # 4 (Above on 03-08-2016; 9:08pm)

In your first paragraph (above) you essentially confirmed the statements contained in my first paragraph of posting # 4 .

In no way do I suggest that the OP should commit a crime, as was asked in your third paragraph above.

What the OP does is his choice. He can obey the law or not obey. It is his call.
The OP asked in posting # 1 what his legal options were.

Let's help the OP "legally" obtain "his" guns !
That's a reasonable request.

If it's not reasonable, it is a denial of his (your, my, or any American's) second amendment right "to keep and bear arms" under our Constitution.

".... from my cold dead hands....!" (Portion of the NRA slogan made popular by the great Charlton Heston).
 
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243winxb said:
Could the OP send a "call ticket" for his own guns , like in post #11??
Click to expand...
No --

  1. While one may ship guns to himself, if his buddy is doing the shipping, he's not shipping guns to himself.

  2. The carrier calling the manufacture the "shipper" as described in post 11 is really only a bookkeeping fiction for the records of the carrier.

  3. The manufacturer has certain explicit leeway under the GCA68 because a manufacturer is an FFL. The relevant statutes authorize non-licensees to send guns to FFLs for repair or other types of gunsmithing, and the statutes also authorize an FFL to return such guns to the non-licensee who sent them.
 
Such a wealth of knowledge can be mined from a simple stroll along THE HIGH ROAD.
I too have pondered on occasion about my options in moving to other states with all of my "tools." Now I know in much more detail.
 
Gun Master said:
Hey, what happened to helping a brother "The High Roader" out?
It's called "The Good Old American Way" !

How about let's helping the OP ?

They are his guns. He's asking for help. Let's do it. OK?
Click to expand...
What exactly are you suggesting we do to help him out?

Personally, I think letting him know what he needs to do to comply with the law is pretty helpful.
 
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