Shoot 9mm in Astra Modelo 400 (1921) ?

[Gun Master]

Several years ago I owned and shot an older 400 (black plastic/hard rubber grips). When I bought it, it was touted to shoot .38 Super and 9mm, besides the intended 9mm Largo.
Long story short, I shot all 3, but remember inaccuracy and possibly FTF/FTF with .38 Super and 9mm.
I currently own a newer model 400 (wood grips), but my 9mm Largo supply is dwindling and I do not reload. There have been some threads addressing shooting .38 Super, but none with much info on 9mm in the 400.
Wanting to shoot safely, and respecting the vast and mostly accurate info on THR, what's the opinion of those who may have frequently shot 9mm in the Astra 400 ?

Is it safe, guys ?

Thank you, very much.

 

[pirate do]

It is very poor idea to fire ammunition in a weapon that is different from the chambering (even if it is a less powerful round) in semi-automatic pistols that headspace on the case mouth like 9x23 Largo and 9x19 Luger. The latter cannot headspace correctly in your Astra M400.

Best case scenario is it works no problem. Bad case scenario is you break your extractor holding all the forces imposed on the 9x19 Luger case because it cannot headspace properly in the chamber; good Luck finding a replacement extractor for a very old pistol made by a defunct manufacturer. Worst case scenario is a KABOOM with the most powerful blowback pistol ever designed, i.e. it has an unlocked breach. If you ever need a replacement recoil spring for your Astra M400, you can use the fork springs from a Yamaha dirt bike...

9x23 Largo is easy to reload and is a flat shooting round given near 38 Super-ish velocities. Blowback design yields very good accuracy too because barrel is fixed. Starline makes excellent brass and you can use regular 9x19 Luger dies backed out about...4mm from usual.

 

[Gun Master]

Don't Shoot 9mm in Astra 400

Very informative and useful posting.
Much thanks!

 

[Jim K]

It is a common myth that the Astra 400 was designed to shoot any of a half-dozen cartridges. That is not true - it was designed and intended to shoot the 9mm Largo, aka the 9mm Bergman-Bayard (usually listed as a separate cartridge in those "shoot everything" lists"). The 9mm Luger, due to its taper, will usually wedge itself into the chamber and work OK, but some brands of 9mm (e.g., Remington) have less taper and don't work well at all.

.38 Super is (IMHO) too hot for that gun; usually the advice was to use .38 ACP (same case) which is hard to find today. The problem is that .38 ACP is semi-rimmed and some Model 400 breech faces are too small to accept it.

9mm Largo is available and, as "pirate" says, the cartridge is easily re-loadable. I would file the "shoots everything" story under "bad advice."

Jim

P.S. I am surprised to hear that a Yamaha fork spring will work in the Astra; I always thought they used the front spring from a Ford F150.

JK

 

[bannockburn]

Gun Master

Heck I didn't enjoy even shooting 9x19 Luger ammo through my Model 600 and that's the right cartridge for the gun. My hand usually started hurting somewhere around the 50 round mark.

 

[cfullgraf]

The Astra 400 will shoot 9x19 by the extractor holding the cartridge against the breech face. Not advisable though as the chamber is not designed for 9x19, 9x19 is designed to headspace on the case mouth, the pressure for a 9x19 round is about 50% higher than the 9mm Largo.

 

[Gun Master]

Gun Master

Heck I didn't enjoy even shooting 9x19 Luger ammo through my Model 600 and that's the right cartridge for the gun. My hand usually started hurting somewhere around the 50 round mark.

The blowback action is a tough one to handle in my 400 with 9mm Largo, and I'm sure the same is felt in the 600 with 9mm.

 

[bannockburn]

Gun Master

That's for sure! After awhile the only time I would shoot it was at the end of the range session because the web of my hand would hurt too much to do any more shooting after that. I also kept it to 50 rounds for the same reason.

 

[Storm]

Precisely. 9mm Luger is a beast out of the 600. That's why my 600 is long gone and my 400 remains. In any event, with the 400 I highly recommend replacing the recoil spring with a new one from Wolffs.

 

[Onmilo]

I shoot .38 Super cases handloaded to 9mm Largo ballistics out of my 400 and everything works just fine.

One can argue that a Colt .38 Super will fire all kinds of 9mm cartridges just like the Astra 400, which it will if it is an old style barrel that headspaces on the case rim and not the case mouth.
BUT the gun, like the Astra, was not specifically designed to do so, it just happens that many 9mm cartridges are dimensionally similar.

Oh by the way, You CAN shoot 9mm Bergmann Bayard cartridges in a 9mm Largo chambered gun.
9mm Largo is simply the Spanish name for the 9mm Bergmann Bayard cartridge.

 

[tark]

GunMaster, I have owned several 400s and 600s in my time. Trying to shoot Luger (9X19) ammo out of a 400 is a bad idea. Would you try to shoot 380 ammo in your Luger? Same concept.

Point number one, do not shoot it at all before you put new springs in it. Wolff has them cheap.

cfullgraf, 9X19 is NOT loaded to higher pressure than the Largo; if anything it is the other way around. I have chronoed some surplus military largo that ran well over 1220 FPS with a 124 gr bullet.

Which brings us around to the 38 super. A few years back the ammo companies started loading the Super down to 9X19 pressures. The velocity dropped a bit, the 130 grain bullet used to leave the barrel at 1300 FPS. It is down to 1200 now. Probably would be safe, for occasional use, but why take chances? To compound matters, many of the earlier 400s have a breechface cutout too small to accept a super's semi-rim. It is very easy to trim the rim on a super case, but here again, why take chances?

Much simpler to pull the bullet on a super, drop the charge by 20% and re seat . This gives you a powerful load that won't strain the gun.

Now for some fun. I have found that most 400s will chamber anything, including empty cases. Take that old recoil spring and lop off a few coils. Then load up some wadcutter ammo, using 148 grain wadcutters designed for a 38 special. YES, you heard that right. I use 2.5 grains of 231. and, after shortening the spring, by trail and error, the gun feeds and shoots them flawlessly. recoil is like a 22 and the cases dribble out the side and land at your feet. I seat the wad bullets out about a tenth of an inch, but you can seat them out further if necessary. Works well with semi-wadcutter bullets, too.

Have fun.