Shoot/don't shoot?

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So you pull in to your local stop-and-rob and there are two bodies in the parking lot, and a guy with a gun standing at the door. What's your reaction?

http://www.idahostatesman.com/News/story.asp?ID=38512

Man dies in Boise Bench shooting
Fight breaks out; knife, gun drawn; 1 dead, 1 injured

Joe Kolman
The Idaho Statesman

Elton Crawford admits his nerves were on edge early Sunday.
Shortly after 12:30 a.m., the private security officer pulled into the 7-Eleven at the corner of Curtis and Overland roads. He wanted a soda before he continued his rounds on the Boise Bench.

A man was lying in the parking lot. Another was on the sidewalk. Both were bleeding.

A third man was standing near the door, holding a gun.

The former Idaho City police officer jumped out of his Treasure Valley Security car, his own gun drawn.

“Drop the weapon,†he ordered Michael Manca, a 32-year-old Boise man.

Manca put the gun on the ground and complied with Crawford´s order to put his hands on the wall of the convenience store.

Killed in the shooting was Jack Jordan, 33. Police said he carried Florida identification, but it was not known whether he was living in the Treasure Valley or visiting. Lyle Myrick, 32, of Boise was shot in the neck and was listed in critical condition Sunday night at Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center.

According to police, Jordan and Myrick argued with Manca and his friends over a woman earlier in the evening at Charlie Brown´s, a bar behind the 7-Eleven.

The bar´s manager said Sunday that Myrick was asked to leave.

Police said Manca and his friends later went to the 7-Eleven to buy cigarettes. About 10 minutes later, Jordan and Myrick pulled up in a pickup, got out and started a fight with Manca´s friends.

As Manca came out of the store, Jordan threatened him with a knife, police said. Manca pulled his handgun and fired three or four times.

That was when Crawford arrived.

As he held his gun on Manca, Crawford radioed another security officer to call police and told other patrons of the store to stay inside. Jordan, who was holding a knife, stirred on the ground. Crawford kicked away the knife and felt for a pulse. It was faint.

Then Crawford heard help on the way.

“It was good to hear the sirens coming,†said Crawford, a 33-year-old in only his second week on the job. “It was nerve-wracking for one person to cover.â€

Police praised Crawford for taking charge of the situation quickly.

“The guy did a commendable job of stopping, pulling his firearm, holding these people and calling us,†Lt. Mike Monroe said.

No charges have been filed against Manca, who was questioned and released. Police said it appears he was defending himself. Boise police spokesman Rich Wright said Manca recently applied for, but had not yet received, a concealed weapon permit from Ada County.

Myrick may face aggravated assault charges for initiating the fight outside the store, police said.

Charlie Brown´s manager, Brett Buchanan, said both men have been in the bar before. Myrick had been asked to leave in the past, he said.

Buchanan said Manca is a friend and a quiet customer.

“He´s mellow and nice to everybody,†Buchanan said. “He would never start anything with anybody.â€

Buchanan said he talked to Manca on Sunday morning on the phone about the shooting.

“He was crying,†Buchanan said.

To offer story ideas or comments, contact Joe Kolman
[email protected] or 377-6439

Edition Date: 04-28-2003
 
Interesting question: what if the situations were reversed? What if you had just drawn on and shot someone in self-defense, and a third party appeared, drew on you, and commanded you to surrender?

Personally, I think it's reasonable to assume that no bad guy would yell at you to drop your weapon, they'd just open fire.
 
For what it is worth, the police department has not yet filed charges against anyone involved yet, though they are making noises about charging the injured guy with assault. They haven't said anything about hassling the shooter, who had applied for but not yet received a concealed weapons permit.

Try that in California.
 
There might be too many variables to get a clear answer... And I have a couple questions about the events.

If I'm involved in a shooting, and a guy stops his car and gets out and orders me to drop my weapon, he better be clean cut, he better be getting out of a Crown Vic or other official looking vehicle and he better say, 'police officer' before he orders me to lay down the gun. After shooting someone, esp two people, you are very likely to be questioning the validity of your own actions, correct or not. Tension will be high either way, but if an undercover officer with a scruffy beard and sloppy clothes jumps out of a 1978 Bonneville and tells me to put my gun down, I would hope that he would say 'police officer' first or else there might be one more wounded body on the ground - either him or me.

If he was a former officer and he is a current security officer, it gives me pause as to how and why he would pull into a parking lot with bodies on the ground and a still-armed gunman without first evaluating the decision to pull in and get out of his car. If he didn't see them prior, he was lacking in always being on the lookout. What if the shooting was still on-going? What if one of the guys on the ground was getting ready to return fire? Either way, glad no one was hurt that should not have been hurt but someone wasn't being quite 100%.
 
WOW, that's not a bad neighborhood at all, I used to live about 3 blocks from there off Kootenai. Crazy.
 
2nd update: the second person died. Still no charges filed.

I agree, cratz2, with all your points. Considering what the reported story is, everything went remarkably well, considering everything that could have gone wrong.
 
Once again let’s keep in mind the media isn’t the most objective. They didn't report all that happened up to the time the police showed up. And 1 thing for cratz2, it is easy to say what you would do or how you would do it better when you were not there. So until you do a little more research maybe you should get off your pedestal! How many shootings have you been involved in? I have been in several and trust me one is still more than enough!
 
Code4, welcome to THR. But I have to ask... why did you search out and reply to a thread that's been dead for more than 5 years, for your first post?
 
Here is the big quistion, if the shooter had turned and shot the 3rd party, would he be charged with anything? I think the 3rd party was a friggin moron imho. quite frankly, he should have called the cops and drove somewheres else.
 
While this thread is most definitely zombified, I found the most interesting part of the original article the fact that, even though the shooter had not yet received his permit, the police did not arrest him for carrying a concealed weapon. Most other places besides Idaho, I suspect, would have booked him on that one alone.
 
I would guess since Idaho is an open carry state, and the police didn't catch him carrying concealed, they didn't charge him. Just a guess.
 
Ok what's the deal lately? There seem to be a lot of people joining just to resurrect threads that have been dead for years.
 
Ok what's the deal lately? There seem to be a lot of people joining just to resurrect threads that have been dead for years.

Well, they keep reading about this "search" function. When they use it, many interesting things - once lost - become found. :)

see sig
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Holy Zombie thread! But no one has pointed out yet:

the private security officer pulled into the 7-Eleven at the corner of Curtis and Overland roads. He wanted a soda before he continued his rounds on the Boise Bench.
A man was lying in the parking lot. Another was on the sidewalk. Both were bleeding.

A third man was standing near the door, holding a gun.

The former Idaho City police officer jumped out of his Treasure Valley Security car, his own gun drawn.

It reads to me like the third party is a uniformed, armed security guard on duty, so I would definatlly follow his instructions and wait for the police.
 
Code4, welcome to THR. But I have to ask... why did you search out and reply to a thread that's been dead for more than 5 years, for your first post?

Yeah, that!

CRITGIT
 
To be honest I just found this info, and I was the officer involved. So I guess cratz comments which clearly showed he did not read the complete article just shows how some people will pick out what they want and disregard all other info. I would have loved to have kept driving, but I felt an obligation to ensuring the safety of others. It started in my service in Iraq, continued in my law enforcement and volunteer ambulance work, and yes I take security work very serious also.
 
...and I was the officer involved

How did Manca respond to your demand to put down his gun? Did he question you at all?

Did you have authority to demand that Manca put down his gun? What if he would have refused, saying something like, "Sorry, buddy, you ain't LE and I'm holding these two guys for the cops. There may be some of their friends about. When LEOs arrive I'll be glad to disarm but not until then?"


I'm very glad it worked out so that the situation was stabilized for the regular LE responders. No criticism is intended of you. Just trying to understand this interesting event.
 
Manca started to turn towards me with the gun and realized what he was doing. He dropped the mag and slowly placed his firearm on the ground while saying "I was just defending myself". It should be noted that the security vehicle was completely outfitted like most police departments (overhead lights, siren, stripe kit ect..) and the first Boise City Sgt on seen mistook me for a Garden City officer ( our uniforms were very similiar ). The first thing I did when I pulled in was activate the overhead lights as I exited the vehicle. My main concern was to make sure no one else got hurt ( including Manca ).
 
So you pull in to your local stop-and-rob and there are two bodies in the parking lot, and a guy with a gun standing at the door. What's your reaction?

Slam it into reverse and get the hell out of there. Call 911 when clear. My job is to keep me and mine safe.
 
I think code4 performed reasonably. And Manca acted reasonably, too--both in the shooting and afterward.

Idaho LE also apparently didn't make a big deal about the unissued permit. That was probably reasonable.
 
I would also like everyone to know I am a big supporter of legal CCW (as long as they are responsible trained citizens)
 
and yeti had it right pd couldnt prove he had it concealed prior and the shooting was defensive at least one subject still had knife in hand
 
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