Shoot 'Em Til They Drop Theory...

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Brian@ITC

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A common teaching in firearms training is that you will be able to get your gun out and use it and immediately stop the threat in their tracks. This type of training is based upon things going perfectly. Exactly how many times in your life has anything gone perfectly?

Even if you do land rounds (including multiple rounds) on the threat, do you really expect them to just fall down and die? A large number people die from the mental aspect of being shot as opposed to the physical aspect. According to Lt. Col Dave Grossman’s teachings, most people who are shot don’t know they are shot because the body shuts down all secondary senses such as pain. So, even if you are able to inflict one or more fatal gunshot wounds on the adversary doesn’t guarantee that they will drop on the spot. The reality of what this means is that more than likely the attacker is still going to be in the fight and possibly causing serious harm to you and or your loved ones.

The common teaching of you will be able to get your gun out and you will be able to shoot the attacker and they will fall down and die on the spot is something that is going to get people injured or killed because they are going to expect it to happen and when it doesn’t they haven’t trained for it, so their chances of survival are probably not good. You will react how you have trained to handle a situation whether or not you want to believe it—it is a proven fact and Grossman’s teachings back this up. If you don’t train on a regular basis, then your chances of pulling something off in a life or death situation are slim at best. And, if you spend most of your time training at the shoot ‘em to the ground (or dead) theory, then how do you think you will react in the real deal when things don’t go perfectly?

Personally, I feel the training mindset of shoot ‘em to the ground is more counterproductive than productive because it is placing high expectations in people’s minds. I don’t believe that most training should be negative training, but students should be placed in “no win” situations because this is reality. People learn more from mistakes than from success—it is just human nature. By placing students in no win situations they won’t always expect things to go as planned. Can you survive a “no win” situation in real life—absolutely.

If the shoot ‘em til they are down (or dead) theory actually worked as well as people would like to believe, then the murder rate and the number of people killed by guns in self-defense shootings would rise greatly. The numbers for attempted murder (with guns) and those injured as a result of someone using a firearm in self-defense would decrease significantly. The truth of the matter is that people (both victims and criminals) are living through multiple gunshot wounds by the numbers. To complicate statistics more, how many people who die from being shot die hours or days later?

What I am not saying is that it is impossible to shoot someone til they drop. I’m just saying that it is probably unlikely that it will happen and you shouldn’t expect to. HOPE for the best and TRAIN for the worst! That way you will be prepared when reality kicks in during a life threatening situation.

Just remember that in a fight that marksmanship is a hopeful skill, FIGHTING skills are a must!

How do you feel about the shoot ‘em til they drop theory?

__________________________
Brian K. LaMaster
Innovative Tactical Concepts
Modern Warrior Talk
Your mind is the weapon. Your body is simply the delivery system for the tool you choose to implement into the fight.
Marksmanship is a hopeful skill, FIGHTING skills are a must!
"What you don't know won't hurt you - it will KILL you!" General Gerry Prather, USAF, XOK (1982)
 
See the stickied thread about bloodlust.

That being said, there is no complex issue with self defense shooting that requires 6+ paragraphs to explain. You shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Any more is going to land you in prison. Any less is going to land you in the hospital or the morgue. That's it. That is all there is to the subject. You may have to fire anything from 0-slidelock, and the situation will depend entirely on when the threat ceases to be a threat.
 
i agree with above; you keep shooting until they stop their agression. No more, no less.

The idea of one shot, or even double tap stops is a bit silly though.
 
Simple as that, whether they drop, run, or start doing the macarena.
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:what:
Doing the Macerena is justification for the application of additional deadly force, as is the Electric Slide, YMCA, and any disco dance.:rolleyes:

AND ESPECIALLY THE 'CHICKEN DANCE':evil:
 
czarjl hit a good point my feet can still work to move me as/after i shhot either to move away from a wounded assailant or to keep the assailant moving away from my family. i do fear that my reaction to a threat to the wife and kids could be over the top.
 
Sooner or later you will lower the bad guy's blood pressure enough that he loses consciousness. That is what the shoot till they drop philosophy is all about.

Yes some people are preconditioned by the thousands of "shootings" they've seen in the entertainment media to drop like a rock if they are shot. However this effect is only valid if the person knows they have been shot. If they see the assailant pointing a weapon and firing at them their mind will put two and two together and you are more likely to get this reaction. This is especially noticeable when less lethal munitions such as bean bag or baton rounds are used. They seem to be much more effective if the subject sees the officer shoot him with the shotgun then if the subject is just struck by the less lethal projectile and he didn't see it being fired.

There are only two ways to rapidly incapacitate someone. Hitting the central nervous system, which is very difficult, the body protects it well, and ex-sanguination....loss of enough blood that the subject loses consciousness. The idea behind shooting until they are down is to keep putting holes into the subject that leak blood. The more holes, the more rapid the blood loss and the loss of consciousness.
 
Unfortunately, the body doesn't just ignore damage, your brain doesn't just "shut down pain". You have to be in a significantly altered state to do that. If you don't believe me, just read a book on biology basics.
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Adrenaline will cause that significantly altered state. So will shock. Both are present in a gunfight. That is why you hear stories from cops, soldiers and CCWers about being in a gunfight and not even realizing that they were hit until afterwords. I'm sure several people could tell you stories. And ask someone who has been shot. Sometimes there isn't pain involved.
 
Shock is a reaction that shuts the primary functions down to protect the body from further harm.

Adrenaline can function as described until any hits delivered start to affect vital body areas. Adrenal shock is also a possibility, but that shuts you down too.

I'm not saying a multiple wounded person from normal state can't continue, but I am saying that it terribly unlikely, the more wounds the better.

If you have ever seen people coming out of high adrenaline situations you know there are two types, those that sit down, cry, scream, and can't function, and those that know just how to keep themselves from harm.
 
There is no complex issue with self defense shooting that requires 6+ paragraphs to explain. You shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Any more is going to land you in prison. Any less is going to land you in the hospital or the morgue. That's it. That is all there is to the subject. You may have to fire anything from 0-slidelock, and the situation will depend entirely on when the threat ceases to be a threat.
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Very well put indeed. I might modify this slightly:

There is no complex issue with self defense shooting that requires 6+ paragraphs to explain. When it is necessary and unavoidable, you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Any more is going put you at very real risk of prison. Any less is going to land you in the hospital or the morgue. That's it. That is all there is to the subject. You may have to fire anything from 0-slidelock, and the situation will depend entirely on when the threat ceases to be a threat.
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expvideo, I know that you know the nuances, but it seems we can't be too complete for some of the readers here.
 
Shock is a reaction that shuts the primary functions down to protect the body from further harm.

Adrenaline can function as described until any hits delivered start to affect vital body areas. Adrenal shock is also a possibility, but that shuts you down too.

I'm not saying a multiple wounded person from normal state can't continue, but I am saying that it terribly unlikely, the more wounds the better.

If you have ever seen people coming out of high adrenaline situations you know there are two types, those that sit down, cry, scream, and can't function, and those that know just how to keep themselves from harm.
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Have you ever been shot, shot someone, or been in a high adrenaline situation? You seem to feel that you have a clear understanding of how the body reacts to those things.

It affects different people differently. What will drop one guy dead before he hits the ground will not even phase the next guy. A lot of the damage from a gunshot is mental and caused by a preconceived mindset of what would happen if the person was shot. If you watch a lot of Walker Texas Ranger, you're probably not going to handle being shot very well. If Ronin is more to your tastes, you have a better chance. Neither one creates a realistic mindset, but they are good examples of opposite ends of the spectrum.

If you think you are going to die from being shot, you are right. If you don't think you are going to die from being shot, you are more than likely right. People can live through a lot if they don't let the "Crap I'm dead" mindset take over.

Also adrenaline affects different people differently. Some people channel it and use it. Other people let it overpower them. Some people curl up in a fetal position and cry. My experience with adrenaline was getting the rush I needed during a situation, and handling everything calmly and clearly, with an intense focus, only to shake and feel sick once the event was over. You might handle it better, worse or just differently.
 
I think I forgot the "everyone has a threshhold" part, but basically, that was what I was getting at poorly, and that most people aren't into ronin, or the mind over matter stuff, so a GSW is a very real and influential experience in their life.
 
My primary defense is a Saiga .223 loaded with softpoints. If they don't surrender immediately, I have the means to end the threat right then and there: a stable, accurate, absolutely reliable shooting platform. I'm pretty sure I can find somewhere that will drop them near-instantly.
 
Lots of good information here, but there's a nuance I'd like to explore.

An assailant has attacked you in your home with the screwdriver he used to jimmy your latch. You have drawn and shot him in the abdomen with a .44 magnum revolver. He staggers, drops to his knees, but keeps coming at you on his knees. He's wearing a down parka hoodie, and while one of his hands steadies himself as he hobbles along the floor like a haunted three-legged stool, the other hand keeps swinging toward that big front pocket. From a legal and from an ethical standpoint, ought the defender (1) level the .44 at the assailant's head and blow it apart; (2) put another, and maybe another, round into his torso until he hopefully crumples onto the floor and bleeds out; or (3) back into the bedroom and dial 911, holding a gun on the crippled but still functional, sort-of mobile and possibly armed assailant the entire time?
 
He's continuing to advance, and looks to be going for another weapon. End the threat, right then and there. Note that at this point, you can always kick him in the face and and probably accomplish the same goal.
 
depends on my perception of why hes my assailant. if i interrupted a b/e he and i can do so safly i back off after my family and wait for the cops. if i percieved him to be there targeting me or mine well hes just made a real poor decision. my decision process then shifts to either 3 s's or calling the cops to report his bad career move
 
Lots of good information here, but there's a nuance I'd like to explore.

An assailant has attacked you in your home with the screwdriver he used to jimmy your latch. You have drawn and shot him in the abdomen with a .44 magnum revolver. He staggers, drops to his knees, but keeps coming at you on his knees. He's wearing a down parka hoodie, and while one of his hands steadies himself as he hobbles along the floor like a haunted three-legged stool, the other hand keeps swinging toward that big front pocket. From a legal and from an ethical standpoint, ought the defender (1) level the .44 at the assailant's head and blow it apart; (2) put another, and maybe another, round into his torso until he hopefully crumples onto the floor and bleeds out; or (3) back into the bedroom and dial 911, holding a gun on the crippled but still functional, sort-of mobile and possibly armed assailant the entire time?
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1, 2, and 3 would all be legal. It would be a difficult choice, but the guy is still a threat. You can do what you feel is necessary to stop him, or if you can you could escape. I would recommend keeping the gun trained on him and trying to escape, if that were an option as it is in the hypothetical. I think that you raise a difficult question that you could only really answer honestly if you were in the situation. I really don't want to have to kill anybody, so I would probably go with option 3. But again, not being in the situation and sitting comfortably at my computer without an accellerated heart rate and adrenaline, and not having to worry about the safety of others, I couldn't make that judgement call.

If he is reaching for what looks like a gun, and advancing, he's gone. I can take crawling with a screw driver, but if he's got his hand in his pocket and is not complying with my commands while advancing on me, he's toast. I'm not going to wait to give him a chance to kill me.
 
What the bad guy is taking for hits is going to make a big difference too.

Of course, depending on SHOT PLACEMENT, if he is taking .22 or .25 automatic hits, it may take more of them than say, 12 gauge buckshot or some kind of magnum.
 
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there is no complex issue with self defense shooting that requires 6+ paragraphs to explain
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I can't say it better so I'll just repeat it.

I read the OP several times and each time finished with the thought " And?"
 
How do you feel about the shoot ‘em til they drop theory?

That's why I like shotguns...

lpl
 
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