Shoot-One-Load-One: Lever/Bolt Rifle vs Slug Shotgun

[BerettaNut92]

Let's say one day semi auto long guns and long guns with detachable magazines are banned outright. For a general purpose arm, it comes down to a lever or bolt action rifle or a slug shotgun.

We're talking 3-4 round capacities for the rifles and 4-6 round capacities for the pump shotguns. This is not including the pistol-caliber lever guns.

Since we have no mag changes and are running all loose ammo, it's shoot one, load one, as we've been taught at shotgun school. Would the bolt or lever action rifle be at any disadvantage from the slug shotgun?

 

[JJohnston015]

My thoughts

The bolt rifle would be at a disadvantage because the action has to be open in order to load one. Lever & shotgun load with action closed. Unless you want to try to train yourself to leave the action open rather than work it open/close. Bad idea?

Bolt rifle also at a disadvantage (perhaps) because the firing-side ejection port means you have to load with the firing hand. You could roll the round in from underneath with your support hand, but you still have to open the bolt first. Plus, if you're talking tactical reload, where there are rounds in the magazine, you can't just drop the new round in; the bolt will still catch the top round in the magazine. You'd have to push it down into the magazine.

Lever rifle has a slight disadvantage for the right-handed, since it also has to be loaded with the firing hand. Levers are actually well-suited for the left-handed, since they load with the support hand, shotgun style.

Levers are at a disadvantage over shotguns just due to the smaller round and loading port being harder on the loading thumb. May be offset by the fact that you can carry more of the smaller rifle round.

Shotgun more versatile in choice of loads.

 

[TallPine]

Let's say one day semi auto long guns and long guns with detachable magazines are banned outright.

So who's gonna come take mine ...?

"Okay, you win. Here's the ammo, at 2200 fps"

 

[444]

No, I see no disadvantage to the rifle over the slug shotgun. You specifically mention shooting SLUGs and not any other load, so no. IMO slugs make a shotgun into a very medicore rifle.
If this actually happened, I am sure that rifles would be made that held more ammo than the ones we have now. For example, the M1 holds what ? 8 rounds and the magazine is not detachable and does not protrude below the bottom of the gun. I don't see why a similar set up could not be duplicated in another action type. The Enfield rifles hold what ? 10 rounds. They have a detachable magazine that does protrude below the rest of the gun, but it wouldn't take much to make a similar rifle that didn't have a detachable magazine.

 

[Correia]

The shotgun is the fastest to load, however it makes a really crappy rifle.

If you are dealing with shorter ranges, shotgun all the way. However as the distance increases so does the need for a rifle.

This is an apples and oranges kind of problem. Besides, if semi autos have already been confiscated door to door, I'm probably already pushing up daisys or sitting in a prison camp.

 

[444]

"If you are dealing with shorter ranges, shotgun all the way."

Why would this be true with slugs ?
Because you can load faster ?
I have discussed before how fast you can load a shotgun with you, but do you feel you can load a shotgun faster than a rifle that could be charged with stripper clips ?
Skunk specifically mentions loading with loose ammo, but doesn't mention anything in this senario that would ban the use of stripper clips.

 

[Boats]

I was thinking the same thing. I used to own a Yugo surplus Mauser. Open the bolt, load a stripper clip, be ready to go IIRC five rounds at a time. Even with having to work a bolt, that has to be faster than either a lever or a shottie going one at a time.

 

[pwrtool45]

Why rule out the pistol caliber carbines? Unlike modern pistol calibers, those old magnum revolver cartridges can really get some juice from carbine barrels. If you're part of the crowd that limits the effective range of the .223 to a couple hundred yards, then you may actually be going *up* in horsepower by using a .44magnum carbine (at least for part of that range). There are other issues to take into account (capacity, recoil, etc) but by and large pistol caliber lever actions have more horsepower than many think. Something to ponder.

I'd probably go with a turnbolt myself, but there are plenty of things to recommend a lever gun and a pump shotgun as well. To be honest, there is much wisdom in the old saying "if you can't kill it with a (few) 12-gauge slug(s), you shouldn't have pissed it off in the first place." Even if "it" in a group of people. Maybe especially if "it" is a group of people.

 

[ctdonath]

Each has its place.

"If you are dealing with shorter ranges, shotgun all the way."
Why would this be true with slugs ?

.308 slug versus one ~.78 slug; 175

Birdshot makes a >1.5" hole at close ranges.

I have discussed before how fast you can load a shotgun with you, but do you feel you can load a shotgun faster than a rifle that could be charged with stripper clips ?

The issue is situation dependent.

At close range in limited quarters, 9 slug/buckshot rounds (Mossberg 590) should be sufficient to attenuate the situation long enough to reload. I can probably cycle the shotgun's action faster than a bolt rifle's.

At medium range, stripper clips in a bolt rifle would likely be better - greater chance of missing.

At long range, single loading rounds should be sufficient.

 

[444]

".308 slug versus one ~.78 slug; 175
Birdshot makes a >1.5" hole at close ranges."

Bigger isn't nessessarily better. Your example uses the .308, Ok; You hit someone COM with a .308 and another person COM with a 12 gauge slug. Which one is deader ? Would you rather be run over by a concrete truck at 60 MPH or a train going 60 MPH. Makes no difference, you are dead either way. Of course your argument alos ignores bullet expansion.
Bird Shot doesn't matter, he specifically said slugs.

The reason I ask is that Correia is very highly skilled with the shotgun. Particularly rapid shooting and reloading, so I was particularly interested in his take on the subject.

 

[Ryder]

Would the bolt or lever action rifle be at any disadvantage from the slug shotgun?

Nooooooo. Rifles will never be at a disadvantage to shotguns. There are things a rifle can do that a shotgun can't but not the other way around. Capacity and speed of re-chamberling matters not unless you're a politician.

Without the ability to spray and pray a miss becomes all the more critical. Ever shoot at a moving target with a shotgun slug? Give it a try sometime. It's a real eye opener. Would you rather lead your target by 3-4 feet or 3-4 inches? Guestimating huge leads aint where it's at when accuracy matters.

 

[Jim March]

Skunky, you're missing a couple of things.

First, even in "rifle calibers" you're discounting the ammo capacity of the levergun. The most common Marlins in 45-70 have five shot tubes (plus one up the pipe it's a sixgun) but special runs of longer barrels with up to nine rounds factory capacity is available.

45-70 ballistics stomps hell out of the shotty slugs.

Second, you dismiss "pistol calibers" too quickly. In the case of 45ACP, 40S&W and 9mm that may be warranted, but NOT in 357Mag or 44Mag.

Example: here's some velocity data for some really hot 357s in an 18" barrel carbine (plus some others):

----------------
Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!
----------------

See also:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

Jim again. That's a 10rd capacity gun, son . And it's VERY compact and handy. Out to 200 yards, those loads are as effective as anything available for combat...slap a scout scope on it, and you are NOT undergunned if you're familiar with 'em.

Reload speed is no worse than a shotty.

 

[Devonai]

I think Boats has the right idea. A fixed-magazine bolt action rifle that can be loaded with chargers plus a buttstock sleeve ammo carrier would give you a lot of versatility. With ten rounds in the buttstock sleeve, you could shoot-one-load-one when you needed to, and reload five rounds at once when necessary.

Those five rounds on the charger are going to load a lot faster than five rounds into your shotgun tube, too. Unless you're using a Benelli M4, I suppose.

 

[Correia]

444, when I said that I was thinking in terms of being able to choose between buck and slugs. Limited to just slugs I think you loose most of your shotgun advantages. Like I said, shotguns make lousy rifles. A .308, 30-30, or 12 guage slug will all be very effective at close range. Which one is most effective is kind of hard to argue about as all will turn your internal organs to pulp. However the 30-30 or .308 are going to be able to do it a whole lot farther.

As for stripper clips, my experience with them is rather limited to screwing around on the range. I imagine that a skilled hand with stripper clips and a whole lot of practice could become extreamly fast in their use.

Now loading something like a 30-30 vs. a shotgun, no contest. My first center fire rifle was a Winchester and it is way slower to load because of the port design. With that said if I was going to be any place with any sort of distance shot I would still take the 30-30. If it was going to be a very limited range kind of thing, or strictly for close up self defense I would take the shotgun, but that is again assuming I have access to ammo other than just slugs.

 

[Mulliga]

Well, if you mean "at a disadvantage" to say that a rifle user couldn't take on a shotgun user, obviously that's false. But against some Feds kicking your door down to take the rest of your stuff away - well, a bolt rifle isn't the best choice.

The lever action is easier to reload than the bolt, no question about it, and the shotgun is obviously the easiest (slip one of those big shells into the port, and you even have a shot ready in case somebody bumps into you while reloading).

If they banned long guns with detachable mags, my 700 Mountain DM (still haven't gotten it yet :banghead: ) would technically be on the banned list. Many, many hunting rifles hav detachable magazines. I don't think the antis will go that far...yet.

 

[Evil_Ed]

I think I would choose a lever gun as I have more time using one than a pump shotgun. I grew up shooting a lever action .35 Marlin. I have seen people hold extra rounds between the fingers of their right hand and throw them into the loading port on the side of a shotgun pretty damned fast though (check out a cowboy action match sometime to see this in action).

 

[artherd]

Bolt rifle *with* detachable mag, AND shotgun slung over the shoulder for anyone who comes up close (replace with handgun if nessicary.)

If they come for my semi-autos, they'll have to get through all the ammo first.

(Though as Skunky knows, they've already 'come' for our AR-15s in the PRK...)

 

[pwrtool45]

Good point. Why should they come for your guns when they know you'll either turn them in willingly or hoarde them away in gun safes? There's simply no need for stormtroopers. Render the questionable guns illegal, grandfather current owners in and then wait a generation or two. I hear the crowd at Knobb Creek isn't getting much bigger as the years go by...

 

[treeprof]

Are we talking abt a regular shotgun, or the ultimate shotgun? It could influence one's decision.

 

[dave3006]

Shoot one, load one works better on shotguns than rifles in cold weather. I have had a 30/30 out at the range in sub 40 degree weather and it is tougher to get the rounds in the gun with numb fingers. The shotgun is a little easier.

 

[El Tejon]

Man, I'd love to see 40 degree right now, and some rain for the streets to boot!

Skunky, brasshopper, you ask questions that you already know the answer to. The advantage and disadvantage is you.