Shooting a Swiss Vetterli for the first time

[Dave DeLaurant]

Back in early September there were a number of posts on the Swiss Rifle FB group from a high school student who had just acquired a Swiss Vetterli rifle and was eager to know what ammo he could shoot in it. I had never owned a Vetterli up to that point, but I could remember being a neophyte firearm enthusiast at that age and I wanted to let him down gently.

The problem he faced was that new Swiss 10.4x38R rimfire ammunition had not been manufactured in many decades. Contemporary Swiss Vetterli shooters have their rifles converted to centerfire via a relatively simple and well-tried method, often as a DIY project. I also found at least two fellows who could perform the bolt conversion with proper machine tools for a fairly nominal fee. While forming suitable centerfire brass appeared relatively easy, it was hardly a suitable project for an absolute novice.

Knowing this and having actually done it are two different things, however. I didn't find the prospect particularly daunting compared with other cartridges I've fabricated in the past and I had to admit that I was intrigued. I soon located a reasonably-priced M1878 rifle on Gunbroker; rather surprisingly, Amazon had Lee ".41 Swiss" dies in stock, for a little north of $40.



I ordered both the rifle and dies at the same time. For cases, I decided on two options: case forming a batch myself using either 8x50R Lebel or .50-110 parent brass, and ordering some ready-formed cases from a specialty dealer. With cases in hand, I could use some of my existing stock of .430" bullets to start off, though they would be too short to feed from the magazine.

Things began arriving here in October, starting with the dies and 40 x .50-110 Starline cases. There is a special form-and-trim die available from RCBS for the 10.4x38R, but Huntingtons sells this die for about the same price I paid for the rifle. I believed I could use the standard Lee resizing die for the purpose, provided I worked slowly and used plenty of lube. It turned out I was right -- it's slow work this way, but far cheaper. Here's a short video I made about it:



I also bought 20 converted 8x50R Lebel cases off Gunbroker for about $2.50 apiece. Comparing these against my own converted brass, both looked and chambered almost identically. I suppose if you only need a few unusual cases such as these, this route involves much less work than forming them yourself.

The rifle arrived here October 4th. After a detail strip, inspection and lubrication, I shipped the bolt off for conversion the following day. Cost with return postage was $65, and I had the bolt back in my hands ten days later. If you're curious how this fellow does the conversions, here's the link to his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheKoba49

My first opportunity for a quick range trip was this morning. I had loaded nine test loads using my reformed cases and 300 grain cast flat nose bullets over 10 grains of Trail Boss. The OAL proved about .1" too short to feed from the magazine, but the accuracy at 19 yards looks very promising.



Early cartridge rifles like the Swiss Vetterli are fascinating and great fun to shoot. I'm looking forward to doing a Vetterli mag dump sometime in the near future.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

 

[troy fairweather]

I have about 30 virgin ppu 8mm ladel case if you need more.

 

[LoonWulf]

Very cool project! Im looking forward to that mag dump.....

 

[GNP]

I found a strange fired rimfire case in a creek while hunting artifacts some years ago in an area where a good bit of Civil War activity had taken place, we thought it might possibly be from that era, but one of the local Civil War buffs we showed it to knew what it was, the case from a Vetterli. Apparently many thousands of them had been imported into the U.S. after they had been replaced for military service. I had actually forgotten about that case. Anyhoo, thanks for showing this, very interesting post.

 

[Jim Watson]

Apparently many thousands of them had been imported into the U.S. after they had been replaced for military service.

Right. The US has been a dumping ground for surplus arms for a long time. Those colonials will buy anything so long as it is cheap. W.W. Greener said of that, there were three classes of (shot)gun; fine, good, and trash. The American is usually a shrewd buyer but he seems not able to discern the differences in guns.

 

[GNP]

Right. The US has been a dumping ground for surplus arms for a long time. Those colonials will buy anything so long as it is cheap. W.W. Greener said of that, there were three classes of (shot)gun; fine, good, and trash. The American is usually a shrewd buyer but he seems not able to discern the differences in guns.

I had heard of these rifles but knew practically nothing about them. I had always pictured the lever-action to have been the ubiquitous rifle leaned up against the farmhouse door frame for emergency use but apparently the Vetterli was a very popular choice also. Sometimes circumstances dictate the choice in quality levels, a lot of the population was pretty poor during those times.

 

[Kleanbore]

A friend had a rimfire repeating model back in the 1950s. Bolt action rifle with a magazine system similar to that of a Winchester '73.

Swiss immigrant Jules Sandoz fed the family with a single shot version. According to his daughter Marie, writing in Old Jules, the trajectory and the lack of a magazine made antelope hunting a chore. I think he bought a 7mm Mauser.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I had heard of these rifles but knew practically nothing about them. I had always pictured the lever-action to have been the ubiquitous rifle leaned up against the farmhouse door frame for emergency use but apparently the Vetterli was a very popular choice also. Sometimes circumstances dictate the choice in quality levels, a lot of the population was pretty poor during those times.

The Swiss Vetterli looks clunky, and of course it is compared to today's hardware, but at the time it was adopted (1869) it was briefly the most advanced military rifle in the world. The Swiss went directly from muzzle-loaded rifles to adopt a repeating metallic cartridge breechloader with a 12-round magazine. Having finally taken one of these rifles apart, I discovered it was a better designed and fabricated action than I had thought.

The elevator system was stolen outright from the Volcanic/Henry/Winchester but ruggedized for military use; the bolt is cock-on-opening and features spring-powered primary extraction. Nowhere near as slick as a lever-action Henry or 1866 Winchester in operation, but more powerful -- and far stronger as a bayonet handle!

The Swiss periodically made fresh batches of rimfire military ammo well into the 20th century -- check out the 1932 lot date on this package of smokeless Vetterli ammo:



A two-part deep dive into the Swiss Vetterli:






The same presenter shooting a Vetterli at speed:




Check out this guy consistently dinging a steel plate at 300 yards with a Vetterli and black powder handloads:

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Swiss immigrant Jules Sandoz fed the family with a single shot version. According to his daughter Marie, writing in Old Jules, the trajectory and the lack of a magazine made antelope hunting a chore. I think he bought a 7mm Mauser.

Possibly a Swiss Cadet rifle?



Or perhaps an Italian Vetterli -- they were all single-shots before the conversion to the Vitali magazine system. The Italian Vetterli used a centerfire cartridge similar to the Swiss, but a bit longer.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Right. The US has been a dumping ground for surplus arms for a long time. Those colonials will buy anything so long as it is cheap. W.W. Greener said of that, there were three classes of (shot)gun; fine, good, and trash. The American is usually a shrewd buyer but he seems not able to discern the differences in guns.

For some background on what was actually being purchased on the post-Civil War American frontier, this book provides sales data from Schuyler, Hartley & Graham from 1868 to 1886.

https://www.amazon.com/Arming-Fresh-Actually-Carried-Frontier/dp/1931464340

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I found a strange fired rimfire case in a creek while hunting artifacts some years ago in an area where a good bit of Civil War activity had taken place, we thought it might possibly be from that era, but one of the local Civil War buffs we showed it to knew what it was, the case from a Vetterli. Apparently many thousands of them had been imported into the U.S. after they had been replaced for military service. I had actually forgotten about that case. Anyhoo, thanks for showing this, very interesting post.

Quite a few larger bore rimfire cartridges were still being produced into the 20th century -- here's a couple pages from the 1918 Remington-UMC catalog:



Back in the 1870s there were even more military rimfire cartridges floating around the gene pool, for new rifles, 'trapdoor'-type conversions and revolvers. For example, the Swedish rolling block rifles and carbines originally were chambered for a fat 12.17x44 black powder rimfire cartridge.

BTW, if you ever need to check something in an old ammo catalog, this site has PDFs of a bunch of them:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs

 

[tark]

Dave, I wish this box was full, but it isn't. It is yours if you want it. It would add a bit of color displayed next to your rifle. The box is in very good shape and the cartridge tray is as well. I'll give it to you, call it a small early Christmas present from a fellow shooter. Don't worry about shipping, it weighs next to nothing. If you want it, shoot me a PM with an address or a P.O. Box #

 

[GNP]

Quite a few larger bore rimfire cartridges were still being produced into the 20th century -- here's a couple pages from the 1918 Remington-UMC catalog:

View attachment 1032844

Back in the 1870s there were even more military rimfire cartridges floating around the gene pool, for new rifles, 'trapdoor'-type conversions and revolvers. For example, the Swedish rolling block rifles and carbines originally were chambered for a fat 12.17x44 black powder rimfire cartridge.

BTW, if you ever need to check something in an old ammo catalog, this site has PDFs of a bunch of them:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs

Thanks for all that info...I have a few scattered pieces of antique ammo I've run across over the years, I need to go to the link and snoop around a little.

I'm gonna try to lay hands on that cartridge case, it's here somewhere but no telling where. The guy that looked at it said the firing pin impressions were unique to the Vetterli, but I cannot remember why.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Dave, I wish this box was full, but it isn't. It is yours if you want it. It would add a bit of color displayed next to your rifle. The box is in very good shape and the cartridge tray is as well. I'll give it to you, call it a small early Christmas present from a fellow shooter. Don't worry about shipping, it weighs next to nothing. If you want it, shoot me a PM with an address or a P.O. Box #

Oooh! Thank you very much.

Or, as a gentleman of Switzerland might say, vielen dank, merci beaucoup, mille grazie, engraziel fetg!

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I'm gonna try to lay hands on that cartridge case, it's here somewhere but no telling where. The guy that looked at it said the firing pin impressions were unique to the Vetterli, but I cannot remember why.

The Swiss Vetterli used a 2-pronged firing pin that strikes each rimfire case twice 180 degrees apart. Here's what an unaltered Vetterli boltface looks like:



There are quite a few photos of unfired Swiss Vetterli cartridges at this site:

https://swisswaffen.com/104mm-vetterli/104vet/wzwcq9pznzzc

 

[bfoosh006]

Thank you for all the info, especially the double firing pins photo.
May I ask how much it weighs fully loaded ? Just curious... and how long is it overall ?

 

[tark]

Wiki says it is about 52.4 inches long, has a 33.5" barrel and weighs 10.4 pounds.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Wiki says it is about 52.4 inches long, has a 33.5" barrel and weighs 10.4 pounds.

And I think that's its empty weight -- the 12 cartridges each use bullets up to about 330 grains. And later it got even worse: the cold-war era Stgw57 weighed over 12 lbs.

 

[troy fairweather]

Ya there more like 12lbs loaded, a old oil soaked stock will add some weight to. There fun shooting from a bench tho.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

One of these is not like the others ...



Tark very generously sent me this beautiful post-WWII Remington box today -- talk about a great conversation starter!

Thanks buddy!

 

[troy fairweather]

Need to find you some original case for the box.

 

[tark]

You are very welcome, Dave! I will be giving StrawHat a couple of .405 Winchester boxes. Hornady's...and they are full. I have no use for them and I got them very cheaply @ ten bucks a box. Just helping out a fellow shooter...

 

[MachIVshooter]

Very cool!

I've passed on a number of these rifles because adding another round that needs to be loaded from relatively expensive brass that still needs formed didn't interest me, but I did pick up a Vetterli-Vitali 1870/87/15 a few years ago, as I already load 6.5 Carcano. They're neat old rifles for sure!

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

You are very welcome, Dave! I will be giving StrawHat a couple of .405 Winchester boxes. Hornady's...and they are full. I have no use for them and I got them very cheaply @ ten bucks a box. Just helping out a fellow shooter...

We are simpatico dude.

I especially try to give neophytes a leg up. A couple techs were here to work on an upgrade for our alarm system during lockdown and we got talking about guns. One of them mentioned he was almost out of ammo and was thinking about starting reloading once equipment was back to normal prices. I sent him home with a box of 9x19 and a Lee hand press -- I picked up the latter at an estate sale specifically to give away. Might lead to nothing, or might add another young member to the fraternity.