Shooting in Maine

[DetBrowning]

With this awful shooting event in Maine, does anyone else find it odd that not one person in the bar or bowling alley was not armed and able to confront the shooter.
I understand the relevance of having a handgun vs a rifle and perhaps someone who may have been armed was busy looking for an escape route, cover or concealment, however, as a former LEO I never go anywhere unarmed if possible. I am in prayer for all those affected, it's awful!

 

[luzyfuerza]

In many states (don't know about Maine), bars are GFZs. Secondly, most go to bars to drink; carrying while under the influence is illegal just about everywhere.

Eleven of those killed were at the bar.

I think that the bowling alley was hosting some kind of youth night. Many of the people there may have been too young to carry.

It appears that three of those killed at the bowling alley were rushing toward the murderer. Presumably while unarmed. They might have saved lives if they had defensive tools and knew how to use them.

Who are the victims of the Maine shootings?

Seven victims were killed at the bowling alley, eight at the bar and three died in the hospital.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[GEM]

This might get closed. However, pretty good research has indicated two things:
1. Most folks with permits or licenses don't religiously carry. One survey said 85% didn't. I don't know about consitutional carry types.
2. The vast majority of folks with permits (over 90%) have no significant training beyond a state mandated course (if there is one). Just a box once a year at the square range.

Thus, there's nothing surprising about the lack of carry. I can see it would be a pain when bowling. In a restaurant, return to points 1 and 2. Folks don't carry and train. I pulled my hair out (so that's where it went?) trying to get Texans who talked the gun talk, what ammo should I carry, I'm buying another gun, etc. to actually take a realistic course or go to a USPSA or IDPA match. Wouldn't do it. Shooting at a rock at the 'ranch' was training for them. The psychology behind such behavior: Lazy, scared to be shown up as not an intrinsic manly warrior? If you do go to match or train - yep, you will look inept at first. So learn - some manly men can't stand that.

 

[N555]

Maine is a Constitutional carry state. I don't remember all the details but bars could be prohibited carry places, unless you're a cop...

 

[luzyfuerza]

And, John Lott reports that both businesses were posted gun free zones.

Is it any surprise that law-abiding citizens who choose to carry guns for their defense were absent from these locations?

The Just-in-Time Bowling Alley in Lewiston, Maine, where Robert Card murdered 7 people on Wednesday, was a Gun-free Zone; the Schemengees Bar & Grille was likely also a Gun-free Zone.

Note: Facebook is censoring people’s ability to see this post in two ways. 1) When people search for this link on FB the CPRC’s site doesn’t appear. 2) Facebook warns people twice…

crimeresearch.org

 

[N555]

And, John Lott reports that both businesses were posted gun free zones.

Is it any surprise that law-abiding citizens who choose to carry guns for their defense were absent from these locations?

The Just-in-Time Bowling Alley in Lewiston, Maine, where Robert Card murdered 7 people on Wednesday, was a Gun-free Zone; the Schemengees Bar & Grille was likely also a Gun-free Zone.

Note: Facebook is censoring people’s ability to see this post in two ways. 1) When people search for this link on FB the CPRC’s site doesn’t appear. 2) Facebook warns people twice…

crimeresearch.org

 

[CDW4ME]

"Gun free zones" hinder the law abiding from effectively protecting themselves, not someone determined to kill.

 

[shafter]

Maine is a constitutional carry state with a strong hunting tradition and lots of gun owners, however this doesn't translate to large numbers of people actually carrying.

Even when people do actually carry, many of these don't train regularly and carry small pocket guns. A person is seriously outgunned going up against someone with a rifle and optic unless they're a seriously hard dude. When an AR starts ripping indoors that concussion is going to be pretty disorienting coming by complete suprise.

 

[N555]

Maine is a constitutional carry state with a strong hunting tradition and lots of gun owners, however this doesn't translate to large numbers of people actually carrying.

Even when people do actually carry, many of these don't train regularly and carry small pocket guns. A person is seriously outgunned going up against someone with a rifle and optic unless they're a seriously hard dude. When an AR starts ripping indoors that concussion is going to be pretty disorienting coming by complete suprise.

Yeah if someone I'm carrying a handgun and a dude is shooting up the place with something like that I'm running for the door. I'm only retiring fire if I'm trapped.

 

[DetBrowning]

This might get closed. However, pretty good research has indicated two things:
1. Most folks with permits or licenses don't religiously carry. One survey said 85% didn't. I don't know about consitutional carry types.
2. The vast majority of folks with permits (over 90%) have no significant training beyond a state mandated course (if there is one). Just a box once a year at the square range.

Thus, there's nothing surprising about the lack of carry. I can see it would be a pain when bowling. In a restaurant, return to points 1 and 2. Folks don't carry and train. I pulled my hair out (so that's where it went?) trying to get Texans who talked the gun talk, what ammo should I carry, I'm buying another gun, etc. to actually take a realistic course or go to a USPSA or IDPA match. Wouldn't do it. Shooting at a rock at the 'ranch' was training for them. The psychology behind such behavior: Lazy, scared to be shown up as not an intrinsic manly warrior? If you do go to match or train - yep, you will look inept at first. So learn - some manly men can't stand that.

Thanks for a cogent and realistic reply, I completely understand. Having had training beyond what the NYPD required of its cops (twice a year, both basically shooting paper) I had more tactical training that I took on my own. I can also say this, having been in an active shooter confrontation as a LEO, I didn't have time to think about what to do. Fortunately God and instinctual muscle/brain memory allowed me to prevail and continue on to getting a well deserved pension.

 

[usaral63]

AND the damnable press is doing it's very best to give all the publicity it can to the killer. So far I've read that he was a 'good fella', had issues but was a kind person, and more similar drivel. He had problems ! No Joke, he was the biggest problem all those unfortunate folks that ate his bullets could ever have, and I do not care in the least to read and try to 'understand' the 'why's'...................I do care about a prompt resolution, either by force or trial, and I remain convinced that the very best and effective way to deal with this sort of person is precisely as one would do with a mad dog......because he is. Truly, the very best publicity this sort could and should receive is a public execution!

 

[GEM]

Here's an article by someone in Maine who finds the owning an AR paradigm against his personal firearms views. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a..._content=20231026&utm_term=The+Atlantic+Daily

Might be behind a paywall but the basic point is that the gun is not needed for sport, modal self defense (small number of rounds, etc.), defense against tyranny and such a risk that it is not worth it. His conclusion:

As a gun owner from gun country, I’ll let you in on the dirty secret that everyone knows in their heart of hearts: The AR-15 is America’s best-selling rifle not because people need them for protection or because our country is full of aspiring militiamen or paranoid whack jobs waiting for civil war. People own AR-15s because they think they’re sexy and cool and manly. Because they have barely any recoil and Army surplus ammo is cheap. Because their buddies have them, so why shouldn’t they? Because they are toys—the most dangerous toys in America, but toys nonetheless. Mothers must ask their sons for pictures of open windows because Americans own AR-15s, and they own them because they are fun.

And if the past 24 hours have convinced me of anything, it is that the only way things are ever going to get better is if more gun owners start asking our friends the one question that matters: How much blood is your fun worth?

Unless Scotus acts with alacrity and clarity (a seeming difficult concept for them), the moral panics will lead to more and more restrictions. Note the progun Congressman in Maine who totally switched and Collins who supports mag bans. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/...ssault-weapon-ban.html?searchResultPosition=2

Now this thread is moving away from Strategy and Tactics, with the usual drift. Might be movable to General?

 

[shafter]

You have to give press to people who are still on the loose. His name and face need to reach the most people possible. Once it's over he can fade to obscurity.

I think it's also important for people to realize that often these people aren't monsters. These are sick people who showed indications of needing help for a long time and it was never given to them. One day they snap with catastrophic consequences and some of the blame lies on the broken system.

It's also important to see the full human picture because one day it could be someone you know who snaps. These aren't super villains plotting mass murder. They're regular people who break. We need to pay attention to those around us and heed the warning signs they give us. We shouldn't ignore it just because Uncle Fred is crazy but harmless. It's just one more piece of situational awareness.

 

[DetBrowning]

Here's an article by someone in Maine who finds the owning an AR paradigm against his personal firearms views. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a..._content=20231026&utm_term=The+Atlantic+Daily

Might be behind a paywall but the basic point is that the gun is not needed for sport, modal self defense (small number of rounds, etc.), defense against tyranny and such a risk that it is not worth it. His conclusion:



Unless Scotus acts with alacrity and clarity (a seeming difficult concept for them), the moral panics will lead to more and more restrictions. Note the progun Congressman in Maine who totally switched and Collins who supports mag bans. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/...ssault-weapon-ban.html?searchResultPosition=2

Now this thread is moving away from Strategy and Tactics, with the usual drift. Might be movable to General?

He is not "someone in Maine" Tyler A. Harper is a Leftest intellectual professor who lives in the world of academia (not reality) and is not to be taken seriously [at all]

Tyler A. Harper

Education: Ph.D., Comparative Literature, New York University (2020) M.A., Comparative Literature, New…

www.bates.edu

 

[usaral63]

You have to give press to people who are still on the loose. His name and face need to reach the most people possible. Once it's over he can fade to obscurity.

I think it's also important for people to realize that often these people aren't monsters. These are sick people who showed indications of needing help for a long time and it was never given to them. One day they snap with catastrophic consequences and some of the blame lies on the broken system.

It's also important to see the full human picture because one day it could be someone you know who snaps. These aren't super villains plotting mass murder. They're regular people who break. We need to pay attention to those around us and heed the warning signs they give us. We shouldn't ignore it just because Uncle Fred is crazy but harmless. It's just one more piece of situational awareness.

Just what world do you live in Mr. Shafter....................Your straining to appreciate this monsters mentality IS one of the main problems we have in our so called criminal justice system now! It's a direct consequence of about a hundred years of lessening and lessening direct consequence for criminal activity, DIRECT.

If it's to be effective, corrective action MUST be sure and certain, and quick........ our's is anything but. Deflection programs, pre trial intervention, early parole or sentence reduction fit that bill, too the consequence of doing so are multiplied to the tenth, at least, when applied to the so called 'mentally ill'..............they sustain NO inhibiting action to amount to a hill of beans.................after well over three decades as a LEO, half as a CLEO experience has taught me that it is well to be always armed, you do as suites you in your world!


PS: would you consider that mad dog a monster had he shot your five year old to death.......would you??

 

[JohnKSa]

And, John Lott reports that both businesses were posted gun free zones.

Well, not exactly. He reports (based on a picture with a sign that can't be read) and a somewhat vague post by a ME state legislator that the bowling alley was posted. He reports that Schemengees was also "likely" posted but he has no evidence for that claim other than two unnamed "sources" who claim it is. UPDATE: He now says that he has a third unnamed source that claims carry was allowed in Schemengees.

Just for the record, according to ME department of public safety, it is not illegal to carry in bars in ME unless they are posted.

Concealed Carry in Maine | Maine State Police

www.maine.gov

​

It will still be illegal to possess a firearm in the following places, with some very limited exceptions:​

• Establishments licensed for on-premises consumption of liquor, if the premises are posted.

 

[wayneinFL]

It would be tough for anyone with a handgun to go up against a man with a 308 rifle. To make matters worse, he was an instructor, so I would assume he was somewhat proficient. Unless someone were to ambush him, they wouldn't have much of a chance.

Politicians are talking about AR bans. I think we all know that we don't want someone who's off his rocker, hearing voices, to have any kind of weapon, much less a semiautomatic rifle. The Navy Yard killer started his rampage with a pump shotgun, and killed 12 people on a military base.

Carry whatever you can whenever you can, and train. Run or hide if you have to. And if you know someone like this, do whatever you can to get him help.

 

[shafter]

Just what world do you live in Mr. Shafter....................Your straining to appreciate this monsters mentality IS one of the main problems we have in our so called criminal justice system now! It's a direct consequence of about a hundred years of lessening and lessening direct consequence for criminal activity, DIRECT.

If it's to be effective, corrective action MUST be sure and certain, and quick........ our's is anything but. Deflection programs, pre trial intervention, early parole or sentence reduction fit that bill, too the consequence of doing so are multiplied to the tenth, at least, when applied to the so called 'mentally ill'..............they sustain NO inhibiting action to amount to a hill of beans.................after well over three decades as a LEO, half as a CLEO experience has taught me that it is well to be always armed, you do as suites you in your world!


PS: would you consider that mad dog a monster had he shot your five year old to death.......would you??

I'm well aware of the situation in Maine. Far more than you realize. It's essential essential to understand the WHY if we are to have any hope of finding a way to stop these events from occurring again.

If my dog went mad and began attacking other people I'd put a bullet in the dog myself, and then I'd start figuring out what went wrong in the hope I could prevent having to do so with my other dogs. I wouldn't sit there telling myself oh well, I have a gun I can just keep shooting them. I don't want any of my dogs going mad in the first place. If they do, then we do what we must.

We need to begin addressing the cause of this behavior and fixing it or sure enough even the level headed people are going to start getting on board with gun control because that's what I'm seeing right now.

I fully support the right to constitutionally carry and absolutely anyone who walks into a building and starts shooting should be shot as quickly as possibly by anyone who can whether law enforcement or citizen but we ignore the obvious here. Maine is a fully constitutional carry state with a strong gun culture and there was no one carrying or at least if they were they didn't do anything. The people are grumbling about constitutional carry possibly being to blame for this and no one can point to anyone with a gun saving the day. I bet that Maine looses CC as a result of this.

 

[luzyfuerza]

My dear friend has developed a form of dementia that creates paranoia and halucinations. But he was still able to open his gun safe. I helped his wife transfer their guns to his brother.

This murderer was apparently a member of a prominent local family. I wonder if any of his family members knew of his mental issues, and could have taken steps to limit his access to firearms.

So often, we only consider solutions that involve governmental action...

 

[Navy87Guy]

In many states (don't know about Maine), bars are GFZs. Secondly, most go to bars to drink; carrying while under the influence is illegal just about everywhere.

Eleven of those killed were at the bar.

I think that the bowling alley was hosting some kind of youth night. Many of the people there may have been too young to carry.

It appears that three of those killed at the bowling alley were rushing toward the murderer. Presumably while unarmed. They might have saved lives if they had defensive tools and knew how to use them.

Who are the victims of the Maine shootings?

Seven victims were killed at the bowling alley, eight at the bar and three died in the hospital.

www.newsnationnow.com

In Maine, an establishment that serves liquor can post as a gun free zone. Carrying would be a crime. If it’s not posted, then carrying)g under the influence is also a crime. Given the fact that there were zero guns employed against the shooter, I’m going to guess that both the bowling alley and bar were posted. Gun owners in Maine have a choice between being safe and being legal.

The killer prayed on the law abiding nature of most gun owners, picking locations he knew would likely prevent an armed response. He may have been crazy but he wasn’t stupid.

 

[wayneinFL]

in Maine, an establishment that serves liquor can post as a gun free zone. Carrying would be a crime. If it’s not posted, then carrying)g under the influence is also a crime. Given the fact that there were zero guns employed against the shooter, I’m going to guess that both the bowling alley and bar were posted. Gun owners in Maine have a choice between being safe and being legal.

The killer prayed on the law abiding nature of most gun owners, picking locations he knew would likely prevent an armed response. He may have been crazy but he wasn’t stupid.

Seeing as how the guy offed himself, I doubt armed resistance would have had much of a deterrent effect. May have stopped him. But I doubt he went into this worried that he would be shot before he shot a lot of people. Even if someone's wearing a full size pistol, they're up against a guy with a rifle.

Not saying he would have just walked into a police station and tried it, but it's happened.

And I don't want to downplay the importance of being armed. There is reportedly at least one instance of a citizen fighting back, ostensibly unarmed. Not hard to believe- this has happened in several cases with young people attacked- older people putting their lives on the line to save younger people. An older professor at Virginia Tech fought back unarmed. Anything that would have slowed the attacker down could have potentially saved lives. No one is going to advise someone to fight and die to save others- it's not smart, but it's happened.

 

[GEM]

There is evidence that some shooters consider resistance from their own writings and testimony. Some don't. 40% kill themselves. Thus you can get deterrence but that moves them to a different location in some cases. For others, not an issue. So direct answer to say that gun bans are absolutely the problem or getting rid of them the solution. Folks like it to be 0,1 for their views but it ain't that easy.

 

[Navy87Guy]

Seeing as how the guy offed himself, I doubt armed resistance would have had much of a deterrent effect. May have stopped him. But I doubt he went into this worried that he would be shot before he shot a lot of people. Even if someone's wearing a full size pistol, they're up against a guy with a rifle.

Not saying he would have just walked into a police station and tried it, but it's happened.

And I don't want to downplay the importance of being armed. There is reportedly at least one instance of a citizen fighting back, ostensibly unarmed. Not hard to believe- this has happened in several cases with young people attacked- older people putting their lives on the line to save younger people. An older professor at Virginia Tech fought back unarmed. Anything that would have slowed the attacker down could have potentially saved lives. No one is going to advise someone to fight and die to save others- it's not smart, but it's happened.

Armed resistance isn’t a deterrent - it’s a physical stop of the threat. Who cares what the perp wanted…people wanted to go home after bowling was over. If one guy had put a bullet in his brain cage, it would have saved others from pain. He wasn’t wearing body armor (surprisingly) so even a 20% hit rate with a standard capacity 9mm would have likely ended the fight.

The one report I’ve seen of armed resistance was the owner of the bar grabbing a butcher knife and trying to stop him. Unfortunately, the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight is true.

 

[Bill_in_TR]

I have read in the various accounts about this that the shooter was a firearms instructor and that the firearms used were purchased "legally" fairly recently. And yet I also read that he had mental problems and had in fact undergone treatment for them. So how can they say the firearms were purchased legally if he had mental problems. And how does such a person become a firearms instructor. It seems as though a whole bunch of people dropped the ball on this one.

 

[JohnKSa]

According to his family, the guy's mental break was relatively recent. It's not clear at this time when he acquired the specific firearm used in the shootings--before or after his mental issues. Besides, if he wasn't involuntarily committed, he's not legally disqualified from owning/purchasing firearms. It is clear that his firearms training came long before he began to hear voices.