Shooting milsurps with open sights

[TimRB]

Having recently been bitten by the C&R milsurp bug, I'm finding myself shooting WWII vintage rifles. Invariably these have open sights graduated out to hundreds of yards, but no micrometer-style adjustment. For all practical purposes (as near as I can see) they are non-adjustable sights, and they seem to have a tendency to shoot high at the closer ranges like 50-100 yards.

What did the soldiers who used these rifles do? I'm guessing they simply made a mental adjustment and fired away.

Because my eyes aren't what they used to be, I find it hard to shoot with open sights anyway, but I hate to give anything up by deliberately pointing the rifle someplace other than where I want the bullet to hit.

Tim

 

[N3rday]

I had heard that soldiers were trained to aim at the enemy's waistline at shorter ranges, while using the sights normally for longer shots. The sights can be graduated out to ridiculous ranges because it allowed groups of people to shoot at large groups of enemies at long ranges; you might not hit much, but you could at least be sure elevation-wise where your shot would go. Also, I guess it was a little bit of wishful thinking; don't our M-16s have sights that can graduate to something like 800 meters? That's a bit long for such a small cartridge as the .223!

 

[natedog]

Yep. Volley fire was a tactic in late 19th century/ early 20th century warfare. And 800 meters is a stretch for any small arms cartridge with iron sights. This article documents a kill at 800 meters with a 4x ACOG, though. USMC.mil

 

[Houndawg]

Maximum effective range for a area target with an M16A2 is 800 yards. So no, 800 yards isn't too far. The .223 can do damage far beyond that.

 

[roo_ster]

TimRB:

Most of the time you can obtain a replacement front sight post for your milsurp. Drift ot the old, drift in the new. Take it to the range and file the new sight down so the POA=POI. Save the old sight post, BTW.

 

[jame]

You might want to consider replacing the sights with some that are more forgiving. I installed some Mojo's on my M48 Mauser, and I couldn't be happier.

Check this out.

 

[Feanaro]

Maximum effective range for a area target with an M16A2 is 800 yards. So no, 800 yards isn't too far. The .223 can do damage far beyond that.

Good luck seeing and hitting something human sized at that range though. With a 500 yard zero shooting at 800 yards, a Remington 55grain load (3240 FPS at the muzzle) will be going a dazzling 901 FPS. You would have to set the sights 210 inches high.

 

[Houndawg]

Good luck seeing and hitting something human sized at that range though. With a 500 yard zero shooting at 800 yards, a Remington 55grain load (3240 FPS at the muzzle) will be going a dazzling 901 FPS. You would have to set the sights 210 inches high.

Umm, no. I said area target. And the M16A2 has a setting for 800 yards. Maximum effective range for a point target is 550 yards.

 

[VG]

Try the receiver mounted peep sights on an M1917 or other Brit-spec rifles, M1903A3, Garand or M1 Carbine.

 

[Feanaro]

Umm, no. I said area target.

Yes you did. Sorry, overlooked that.

And the M16A2 has a setting for 800 yards.

Ah, didn't know that. (Not an AR person)

 

[Houndawg]

Feanaro,

Join the Marine Corps. You'll learn everything you ever wanted to know, and some things you didn't.

 

[30Cal]

To hit a man sized target w/ a Garand out to ~450yds, you leave it on the battle zero (300yds), hold center of mass and squeeze the trigger. If you're making shots past that range, you'll need to be pretty good at estimating the range as the bullet starts to drop like a rock.

 

[TimRB]

"I installed some Mojo's on my M48 Mauser, and I couldn't be happier."

I checked out the Mojo sights, and I definitely am interested, especially for my K31. I am skeptical that this sight (or filing) could work on my VZ24, since it looks like the handguard would would prevent the sight from going low enough. (That is, the wood would block the view if the sight was lowered.) I know Mojo makes a sight for that rifle, but I would be interested in hearing from someone who has tried it.

Tim

 

[JohnKSa]

I think a lot of them will shoot close to point of aim at 100 yards with the sight on the lowest setting and a bayonet mounted.

I guess the idea was that if you didn't have the bayonet mounted you would be shooting at long distances, and if someone was close you wanted your bayonet mounted anyway.

BTW, the reference to filing the sight was regarding the FRONT sight. The rear sight is not adjustable on most of the old bolt style rifles--all of the zeroing adjustments are done with the front sight. It's drifted to zero for windage, and either filed down for an elevation zero, or they had various height front sights and installed the one that was closest.

Even with the Mojo sight, you're probably going to have to put a taller front blade on your rifle.

 

[Cosmoline]

Not all of the mil surps have the high shooting problem. It's worst with Mosin carbines and certain Mauser variants. OTOH I've had Swiss K-31's, Finnish Mosins and K-98k's that shoot ball ammo at POA all the way up the tangent. With such a rifle you can really appreciate the awesome power of a properly adjusted tangent sights. My K-31 in particular tracked the tangent sights as far out as I could go on the range, with GP-11 ball ammo.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd advise against Mojo for the K-31. If its sights are off, that's unusual and the rifle itself may be wearing out. I've had Mojo on my old VZ-24 and the system worked very well indeed. I had it zeroed at fifty yards and I was able to sight through it fine. However I was using the double aperture system with that rifle.

 

[Trebor]

The "point blank" setting on battle sight for the Springfield '03 was 547 yards. The ladder could be raised and adjusted downwards for closer ranges, but the ladder is known to be bulky and relatively fragile.

My Swedish Mauser was shooting two feet high at 200 yards with the sights set at the minimum 300 yard setting. I wound up putting a taller front sight blade in and now it's dead on at 200 with the rear sight adjusted about half-way up up. Of course, the original range increments are no longer valid, but I still have room to adjust both up and down for longer or shorter ranges from what I now use as the default 200 yard zero.

 

[Feanaro]

Feanaro,

Join the Marine Corps. You'll learn everything you ever wanted to know, and some things you didn't.

One step ahead of you there. I've already pretty much planned on joining up.