Shooting Old Double Barrel Shotguns?

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If an old double barrel shotgun is marked as a "NON SHOOTER" in a gun shop but seems to be in good working order would it be reasonable to test it (remotely) with moderate black powder loaded shells? There have been some guns I really would have liked to have but not as wall hangers. I load black powder shells. I don't know why these guns wouldn't handle it, I would have a gunsmith check the gun over for any issues.
 
If it's in a gunshop labelled as a "NON-SHOOTER", chances are a gunsmith has already looked at it and deemed it so. Since you didn't mention Damascus vs. Fluid Steel, etc., I'd suggest you leave the determination of shootability to the pros.
Just opening and closing is not necessarily 'good working order."
If you decide to go ahead and test one anyway, be sure you are behind cover (not concealment), with a long string on the trigger, and the gun solidly mounted.
 
Old tire, gun stock in one side, barrels tied to other, paper taped around the breech, long string to the trigger. Load that black powder shell a little hotter than you plan to shoot, say 3 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 oz.
Check paper for burns, pinholes, etc.
Tap the barrels alone hanging from a string before and after for a "ringing" rather than a clunking sound.
I'd even pay for a magnaflux before hand.
That said, I've shot a lot of black powder doubles, and singles, over the years, both fluid and Damascus steel.
A bore scope check caused me to retire my old Belgian ml double that I'd hunted with or years when I saw the erosion around the breech plugs.
 
I would find out why it had been marked as a non shooter... did the gunsmith find a crack in the barrel or some other fault, or is it just a generic safety warning because they don't want someone to buy it and try loading it up with modern shells?
 
Is the reward really worth the risk? I have an old SXS made prior to WW-1 that belonged to my great grandfather that has Damascus barrels. It was last fired in the early 1970's before my dad, or I, realized the potential danger. I killed a few squirrels, rabbit and quail with it before retiring it.

The gun appears to be in great shape, and I'd love for my children, and grandchildren to fire just one shell out of it. It would PROBABLY be OK. And the reward of seeing the 5th and 6th generations of my family connect to a gun going back that far would be great.

But the risk, no matter how miniscule, of losing the gun and risking injury to my kids or grandkids is just too much. There would be no reward to me of firing an unknown random gun. Only risk.
 
Based on the information provided, it's impossible to say whether the shotgun is safe to fire with BP shells. I would recommend getting it to a gunsmith that is accustomed to working on vintage guns. Just because a shotgun is old or has twist steel barrels doesn't mean that it is unsafe to fire. By the same token, it doesn't mean that it is safe either. Many times guns are marked unsafe to fire by a shop for liability reasons since there is no way to regulate the type of shells used or that they didn't want (or have the ability) to make a determination on the serviceability of a particular gun.
 
So much misinformation by guys who have no clue. Damascus barrels are not unsafe to shoot. The British have, and still do, proof and shoot them with modern nitro ammo. If a gun is safe to shoot with BP loads that produce 7 to 8000psi, why couldn't you shoot nitro loads producing the same pressure ? That barrel doesn't know what kind of powder produced the pressure.
Sherman Bell had a series of articles in the Double Gun Journal where he tested Damascus barreled SxSs. Two different times he tried 20 " Wall hangers ", trying to destroy them. None of them had any ill effects with 18,200psi Remington proof loads. He then took a Parker and increased the loads until it finally went around 30,000psi. The other barrel a load or two latter. A standard 12ga load is around 10,500psi. In one test he had a Damascus 10ga with 2 7/8" chambers. He tried proof loads, and then 3 1/2" magnum shells - didn't do anything. I'm not saying all Damascus barreled guns are safe, just not all are unsafe. Same as modern guns.
I've been shooting Damascus barreled SxSs since 2005 and putting on a SxS Shoot where many of the guys are shooting Damascus barreled SxSs. Up to 60 shooters attend and no one has ever blown up a gun.
At this time I own three Parkers and one Lefever, all Damascus. Also nine Remingtons and all but three are Damascus. I shoot one or the other three times a week over at the club, 99% of the time with nitro powder, my own reloads. Once in a while with BP for fun.
So to sum up, if you don't feel comfortable shooting a Damascus barrel gun, don't. But please don't say they're unsafe to shoot. Many gunsmiths or gun stores for legal reasons say don't shoot, wall hangers. Remington use to advertise all their barrels were proof tested for any load. And LC Smith was still selling them in the 20s or 30s from stock left over. I love to see the " do not shoot " signs, it means the gun will be cheaper.
 
I just read the two threads 243 referred to. The second talked about " cheap Damascus " barrels being unsafe. It so happens in Sherman Bells second set of test they were cheap twist Damascus barrels. He ONLY tested them with the Remington proof loads of 18,200psi and they all passed. He didn't see what it took to blow one up.
 
paul harm said:
I just read the two threads 243 referred to. The second talked about " cheap Damascus " barrels being unsafe. It so happens in Sherman Bells second set of test they were cheap twist Damascus barrels. He ONLY tested them with the Remington proof loads of 18,200psi and they all passed. He didn't see what it took to blow one up.
Click to expand...
I read those articles. Very informative. Certainly worth reading.
 
paul harm said:
So much misinformation by guys who have no clue. Damascus barrels are not unsafe to shoot. The British have, and still do, proof and shoot them with modern nitro ammo. If a gun is safe to shoot with BP loads that produce 7 to 8000psi, why couldn't you shoot nitro loads producing the same pressure ? That barrel doesn't know what kind of powder produced the pressure.
Sherman Bell had a series of articles in the Double Gun Journal where he tested Damascus barreled SxSs. Two different times he tried 20 " Wall hangers ", trying to destroy them. None of them had any ill effects with 18,200psi Remington proof loads. He then took a Parker and increased the loads until it finally went around 30,000psi. The other barrel a load or two latter. A standard 12ga load is around 10,500psi. In one test he had a Damascus 10ga with 2 7/8" chambers. He tried proof loads, and then 3 1/2" magnum shells - didn't do anything. I'm not saying all Damascus barreled guns are safe, just not all are unsafe. Same as modern guns.
I've been shooting Damascus barreled SxSs since 2005 and putting on a SxS Shoot where many of the guys are shooting Damascus barreled SxSs. Up to 60 shooters attend and no one has ever blown up a gun.
At this time I own three Parkers and one Lefever, all Damascus. Also nine Remingtons and all but three are Damascus. I shoot one or the other three times a week over at the club, 99% of the time with nitro powder, my own reloads. Once in a while with BP for fun.
So to sum up, if you don't feel comfortable shooting a Damascus barrel gun, don't. But please don't say they're unsafe to shoot. Many gunsmiths or gun stores for legal reasons say don't shoot, wall hangers. Remington use to advertise all their barrels were proof tested for any load. And LC Smith was still selling them in the 20s or 30s from stock left over. I love to see the " do not shoot " signs, it means the gun will be cheaper.
Click to expand...

I've owned and shot a few old doubles, never owned a Damascus barrel tho. Most of them had recent barrel proofs. I had an L C Smith that was built in 37 that didn't but I didn't shoot factory loads in it. I don't think the US manufacturers officially proofed their barrels but almost everyone else did. Damascus or fluid steel really isn't the issue. The condition of the barrels is. In England barrels that were deemed unsafe (wall thickness below .020") were discarded and new barrels sleeved onto the cambers of the old gun. That was pretty common.

As was stated, ammo is also key to shooting old sxs shotguns. Even some guns built before 1940 with fluid steel barrels should not be subjected to the higher pressures of modern shotgun loads. I loaded short chamber guns (2 1/2") by cutting hulls to the proper length and keeping pressure below 7500 psi. per the powder manufacturers load data. A well made Damascus barrel can be safe if it's in proof and proper ammo is used. I suspect that many people here in the US that shoot Damascus buy their shotguns in the UK or from someone here that imports them. By UK law they get tested before they can be sold.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
Even some guns built before 1940 with fluid steel barrels should not be subjected to the higher pressures of modern shotgun loads. I loaded short chamber guns (2 1/2") by cutting hulls to the proper length and keeping pressure below 7500 psi. .
Click to expand...
While I agree with the sentiment of being cautious with old shotguns, the SAAMI pressure standards for 12ga has not changed since its formation in 1926, and the highest allowable pressure (11,500 psi) was based off of industry practices for shells established just before WWI. 2 3/4" shells, at least for 12ga, were common even around the turn of the century and became more or less standard after WWI
 
Curious to read the article, and also wonder if it matters how much you want to shoot it. Like the MPI process for AR bolts, it isn't something that will likely matter the first time the gun is fired.
Liked the comments about gun shop CYA thinking as well...once it is out the door, it's hard to say what could get stuffed in it.
Moon
 
I'm not sure, but I would bet I've seen over a 100 American made Damascus barrel SxSs. And I've seen them every year at my SxS Shoot. Here in the USA there is no National Proof House like in England, but that doesn't stop hundreds of people from shooting their Damascus barrel shotguns. In the USA each manufacture proofed their own barrels. This Damascus is unsafe myth here in the USA [ not any other country] started back when manufactures learned how to make plain steel barrels without a butt weld from breech to muzzle which was very unsafe. Remington did it first with rolling mills using a 2" in diameter round stock 9" long with a 3/4" hole drilled down the center. It was then heated and drawn out 30" or what ever length was needed. This process saved their neck because governments all over the word were ordering their barrels for rifles. Before Remington developed this method, Damascus barrels were considered stronger than steel barrels because of the short welds going around the barrel, not one weld going the length of the barrel. Now manufactures needed some way to get consumers to buy steel barrels, which were much cheaper to produce. So, Damascus barrels were claimed to be unsafe. That, and new smokeless powders were being used more and more. At first nitro wasn't used and people could still use the old method of measuring with a dipper, the same amount as BP. Then nitro was used in the formula and instead of 80 to 100 grains of powder, maybe 15 to 25 was used. Well, many people would still use the 80 to a 100, and blow a gun up. So we had a combination of things happening. Stronger powders used improperly and manufactures wanting to sell a new product that was cheaper to make. As I said, not all Damascus barrels are safe, but even modern steel barrels at times blow up. SB tested over 20 wall hangers at different times with 18,200psi proof loads and couldn't blow up a one. They were all " wall hangers " given to him with instructions to blow them up. He said they were loose fitting, or not on face, loose ribs, and some had very deep pitting. He even tried 2 3/4 or 3" shells in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. There was only a 500 to 1000psi increase with the long shells. Come on out and try one of my guns - Lapeer County Sportsmen Club, Lapeer, Michigan, any Sun, Tues, or Friday, or at my shoot on May 14th where there will be many old SxSs. Paul
 
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Fact: Damascus barrels are probably safe. At least the vast majority of the time.

but the failure mechanism is plausible and impossible to diagnose by prior visual inspection… and when (if) they let go it’s right by your hand and not far at all from your face.

And many or most of them are chambered for older 2 1/2” or 2 9/16” shells that you can’t find anymore. 2 3/4” shells will often fit in the chambers but won’t open properly, leading to potential pressure spikes at worst or lousy performance at best.

And many, many of the old boys are cheaply made Belgian guns that handle like a boat anchor and have zero parts availability, to say nothing of how roughly they may have been treated previously.

So although it’s probably fine…. maybe worth chancing for an heirloom, is it really worth the gamble on an unknown piece at the shop being explicitly sold as a non-shooter?
 
SixteenGauge said:
While I agree with the sentiment of being cautious with old shotguns, the SAAMI pressure standards for 12ga has not changed since its formation in 1926, and the highest allowable pressure (11,500 psi) was based off of industry practices for shells established just before WWI. 2 3/4" shells, at least for 12ga, were common even around the turn of the century and became more or less standard after WWI
Click to expand...

Before WW2 many American 12 ga. doubles were made with 2 5/8" chambers. Fox was one. Shorter chambers increase pressure. Not likely to be a problem but I'm not loading 11.5 for a prewar double nor will I shoot standard off the shelf loads in it. I guess it's just a precaution that I like to take. There are lots of newer shotguns out there if I want to run factory ammo. YMMV.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
I have been told that there are fluid steel barrels that were surface etched to look like Damascus but really were not.
Click to expand...

Real Damascus alloy steel is a recipe that is mostly lost to time. Using a rare steel from India. Modern Damascus is usually a differeny alloy with acid etching to enhance lines similar to using stain to stand out the grain of wood.

https://www.google.com/search?channel=nus5&client=firefox-b-1-d&q=real+damascus+steel

1800ish to 1940s shotguns, I would not use smokeless powder shells in. Black powder is a little more forgiving in a charge load than smokeless powder.

 
No it is not reasonable to test a gun remotely to see if it is safe. All that means is that it did not blow up on the first shot. Proof testing is a different thing with measurements made on the strain of the metal when the gun is shot.
 
I think it is foolish. You don't know what has happened to that metal and the older the more likely to have flaws. Just buy a newer gun.
 
And please send me all your old unsafe Damascus barreled guns. I'll see to it they're disposed of properly.
 
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