Shooting Pistol caliber in a rifle or carbine

[merlinfire]

Quick question.

Typically, about how much additional speed/accuracy will you get out of firing a pistol caliber round (.357, .44, 9mm) out of a carbine or rifle? I was thinking about getting one.

 

[Tirod]

About 200-400 fps max. Depends on barrel length, load, type of rifling, etc. The effective range could increase another 100 yards for a good shooter. It would make a 6" barreled pistol at 50 yards a 150 yard carbine.

For SASS shooters, and on a farm or ranch, the shooter gets the benefit of some extended range with a common caliber. It doesn't make it a rifle, tho, and a 250 yard shot at a deer or coyote would be questionable.

The basic problem is that it is a short fat bullet that loses speed rapidly, compared to the long, skinny rifle round of equal weight that doesn't shed velocity with it's better aerodynamic profile.

We recently bought patio doors for a remodel, and while unloading them (stick with me,) had to walk around the house to store them in the basement. Once clear of the house, the south wind caught the full face of the doors and it was a struggle to hold it up until it got turned edge to the wind. Then it was no problem.

Large frontal areas mean more energy transfer sooner, but lose velocity quicker. Everything is a tradeoff.

 

[rfurtkamp]

The increased accuracy is a matter of sight radius/sights themselves being better than a handgun, coupled with the stability provided by a stock.

As far as speed, you're not clear whether you mean velocity of the bullet or speed of follow up shots, or what. Velocity gain will vary by caliber and barrel length - 9mm will get more out of the Uzi's 10.5" barrel on a NFA carbine than my MP5K-PDW's 5.25", but both will register slightly higher velocity than the 4.4" barrel on my Sig 226, etc.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

the high pressure handgun rounds generally gain the most from a carbine barrel. relatively low pressure chamberings can be handloaded to pick up some speed.

 

[MCgunner]

It' more to do with the burn rate of the powders than pressure. 9x19 makes some pretty decent pressure, right up there with .357 mag if in +P form. But, Bullseye or Unique is much faster than 2400 or AA#9. You won't get a lot more from the longer barrel in a 9mm carbine. .357 will kick butt from a rifle, right up there close to the .30-30/.35 Remington factory loads in it's best loads.

I get 1470 fps out of a 165 SWC/14.5 grains 2400 in a 6.5" Blackhawk, just over 1800 fps from the 20" Rossi carbine. With 16.8 grains of Lil' Gun, below max by about half a grain, I get 1900 fps, but Lil' Gun is a little slow for revolvers, has a rep for burning forcing cones and flame cutting. I stick with 2400 in my revolvers and it shoots fine in the rifle, too. Lil' Gun is my specialty rifle powder.

 

[hammerklavier]

ballisticsbytheinch.com

 

[R.W.Dale]

IMO powder burnrate is a red herring

how much velocity gain you see has most to do with the pressure rating and bore case ratio. You don't select the optimum propellant for your bbl length, you select a propellant based on your cartridges parameters.

As to 357 and lil gun, I could get nothing resembling accuracy from this powder but I did get some odvious and worrysome overpressure indications.

 

[MCgunner]

how much velocity gain you see has most to do with the pressure rating and bore case ratio. You don't select the optimum propellant for your bbl length, you select a propellant based on your cartridges parameters.

Of course auto pistols can't run slow powders because they don't have the case volume that the magnum rounds have, the slower powders being pretty bulky. Simple fact, powder that gives a longer pressure peak down the bore (slower, bulkier powder) will give the most push in a rifle. The magnum rounds have enough case capacity to use such powders and are traditionally loaded with such.

There's a puma chambered for .454 Casull. I'd like to have one of those.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Simple fact, powder that gives a longer pressure peak down the bore (slower, bulkier powder) will give the most push in a rifle.

Simple fact, powder that gives a longer pressure peak down the bore that you can effectively burn the most of will give the highest velocity in ANY LENGTH BARREL.

So seem to be overlooking the fact that the same propellants you note as being best for carbines also are for revolvers.

You're grossly overly simplifying it. Just cause the powder is slower does NOT mean it's better for a carbine. Look at screamer .357 110g loads. In order to acheve top velocities you have to use a faster powder because you cannot fit in the case any more of the powders optimum for heavier bullets.

case capacity - bore diameter - pressure rating- bullet weight// these are your considerations for propellants.

you're essentially claiming that

barrel length - burnrate

are the only elements of consideration

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey according to ballisticsbytheinch.com , the .357 mag gains 800-900 feet per second, in nearly all bullet types, going from 2" to 18" - yowsa!

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I tryed some BDot loads in my .45acp carbine under 185 gr, std Win lp's. lots of unburned powder and didn't seem to be a hot load. don't have a chrono so can't record fps.
next I tryed Power Pistol and things began to get interesting, mind I have a new buffer and heavy spring in my Camp (9mm too). those slugs came outt'a there with a sharp report and really rocked a steel disc, 6" dia 3/8" thick at 100 yds.
a nephew has one of the folder kel-tec 9mm's and it's built from the factory for +P, even recommends them. some hot PP loads came outt'a that carbine with a 'crack'. 124gr jhp's and tore a ghastly hole in wet frozen stacked 2x8 spruce with about 9" penetration.
I dang near took the head off a doe couple years back, base of skull/neck shot with the same load in my Marlin 9mm.

 

[Ed Harris]

The advantage of using handgun ammunition in a rifle is NOT to see how much more velocity you can get, but to reduce noise, blending in with the ambient background noise, while still having reasonable power and accuracy which is better than a handgun.

My converted Marlin Cowboy rifle now in .45 ACP gives only a little more velocity than the same ammo fired in an M1911 pistol, about 900 f.p.s., but factory 230-grain Remington Golden Sabres shoot into a ragged hole at 50 yards. Fired from a 22 inch barrel they make no more noise than MP5SD with Mk.23 subsonic ammunition and a "can". Just the ticket for shooting deer in the garden outside the kitchen window without disturbing your neighbors.

You can do the same thing with .38 Special wadcutters fired out of a .357 cowboy rifle. Out of a 24 inch barrel factory .38 wadcutters do about 850 f.p.s. The WHACK! of the bullet perforating through both sides of the deer's skull makes more noise than the gun going off.

But if you need to know:

.38 Wadccutter which gets 750 in 4 inch revolver, is 850 in 24 inch rifle
.38 158 LRN which gets 800 in 4-inch revolver, is 950 in 24 inch rifle
.38 158 Lead +P which gets 870 in 4-inch revolver, is 1125 in 24-inch rifle.
.358 158-gr. JSP which gets 1200 in 4-inch revolver, is 1600 in 18 in carbine, and 1725 in 24 inch rifle.

My advice is to keep the rifle velocity subsonic around 1000 f.p.s. or a bit less less using the heaviest bullet which groups accurately.

 

[JDGray]

My RRA 9mm 16" barrel, picks up 200fps over my CZ75 4.75" barrel, with the same dose of Power Pistol. PP gave move fps than HS6 out of the carbine, even though it is a faster powder. This seems to support krochus's theroy on the slower powders not always giving more FPS

 

[MCgunner]

krochus, you are a know it all and you may be right, whatever. Interior ballistics isn't simple. All I know is, Bullseye won't work as well as 2400 in a .357 carbine and the obvious difference is burn rate and density of the powder. You can't pack enough 2400 into a 9x19 case to get it to work, not dense enough. That is the difference i see in the magnum cases and the auto pistols. This simple fact is at play, regardless of whatever else is. Yes, 2400 works in 4" guns, 2" not so much. 9x19 becomes very competitive with the lighter bullet .357 loads when you start talkin' snubby revolvers. Longer the barrel, though, the more zip the .357 has. 9x19, a little more zip, but not as much.

you're essentially claiming that

barrel length - burnrate

are the only elements of consideration

I don't recall saying that. But, see if you can make bullseye work as well as 2400 in a 20" barrel .357 and get back to me. The slower powder is less dense, that also makes it unusable in the 9mm case, just isn't efficient in that case, won't produce the pressures.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

ballisticsbytheinch.com

Very interesting. Velocities seem to basically plateau in the 10-12" range.

I think Ed has a great point though. It is incredible the difference in noise firing the same rounds out of a .22 rifle and pistol.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I don't recall saying that. But, see if you can make bullseye work as well as 2400 in a 20" barrel .357 and get back to me. The slower powder is less dense, that also makes it unusable in the 9mm case, just isn't efficient in that case, won't produce the pressures.

It' more to do with the burn rate of the powders than pressure.

and you take a 6" 357 revolver firing 158g bullets and see if bullseye works as well as 2400 for THAT application and get back to us.

The same resoning holds true for rifle rounds in handguns. For example the same powders that worked best in my 20" Winchester were the same powders that delivered top velocities in my 10" 30-30 BFR
either way it's not worth getting angry over, we're prolly both trying to get the same point across it's just that we're sayin it diffrently

 

[merlinfire]

that ballistics by the inch is pretty nice. thanks!

 

[MCgunner]

My original point was that give the magnum pistol round a rifle length barrel, you're going to get more out of it than you do when you give the pistol carbine a rifle length barrel, even though that pistol carbine might be loaded to similar peak pressures. That's my whole point. That's all that matters. Believe what you wanna believe causes it. But, the premise is fact.


BTW, in a 2" barrel, Blue Dot works better than 2400 or other slower powders normally loaded in the .357, especially with a 125 grain bullet.