Shooting two-handed - how to hold the gun

[MrBorland]

When I try to align the gun right down my right arm, I suppose my arm does better at fighting/absorbing the recoil, but my head is cocked so far to the right to look down my arm, it feels very un-natural.

It is un-natural. He's not the first expert to say this is important, but to not actually do it . Yes, at 2:00, you can see him demonstrate an in-line barrel when he's not actually in a shooting position. Go to 5:30, though, and you will see that barrel is certainly not in-line. Looks like a standard isosceles stance to me.

I was only referring to target shooting, and the question was only about precision.

You can mess with other grips and stances, but for 2-handed accuracy, a neutral grip/stance is best, IMO. A neutral stance is where your grip and stance isn't itself influencing the gun. Imagine getting in your shooting grip/stance using a piece of tissue paper instead of your gun. Imagine a grip/stance where the tissue between your fists isn't put under tension, and certainly not ripped. Your fists can be quite tight and controlled without tension on the tissue paper. There may be some variations on it, but IMO, for accurate and/or fast 2-handed shooting, the isosceles stance is the way to go. And I don't know if he mentioned it or not, but thumbs can influence the gun as well, so I keep them forward and off the gun entirely.

gun should be in line with my right arm, so the recoil goes right down my arm

You can't really "control" recoil, so a stance and grip which sends the recoil "straight back into your arm", is not only not neutral (i.e. not the best for accuracy and/or speed), but doesn't address the real issue, which is whether the front sight returns to it's starting position at the end of the recoil cycle. Since a neutral grip isn't influencing the gun, the front sight should return properly. This is a big reason why those uber-fast runNgun guys use this stance & grip - they don't have to consciously re-align the sights after a shot - instead, their sub-conscious just confirms the sight picture and bang.

 

[tws3b2]

I watched Hickok45 in a video on how to grip a handgun. Works for him. For me, not so much. I had to try different grips until I found what works for me. To each his own.

 

[mikemyers]

Considering the type of shooting youre doing, and having shot a couple of different target type disciplines in the past, two things seem to be missing here and stand out. Those being "fitness" and dryfire", both of which are major benefits to that type of shooting, and just shooting in general.

Dryfire is also a major help here, and it also helps with the fitness part, especially the muscles you need to shoot with. More than anything though, it just helps you focus on doing things properly, and reinforces that, without the distraction of muzzle blast and recoil.

I think if you just work on that, youll see improvement start to happen, and fairly quickly. Id also try as many different things as you ca grip and stance wise, and see what works best for you, with how you want to shoot.........

Dryfire - yes, that is the single most important thing to improve at the range, meaning I do it almost every day, using a schedule I created, and using an app on my phone so it all gets done completely - usually between one and two hours every night, usually while watching a movie or something so I don't get bored. To me, the "work" is at home, in dry-fire. I am very strict on what I do, and how I do it. At the range, not. At the range I just "do" what I have practiced so hard at. The work is at home. The "test" is at the range. As Sgt. Keith Sanderson put it, for every live round I shoot at the range, I should dry-fire 100 rounds.

After doing the dry-fire just about every day, when I do get to the range, I shoot between one and four targets, 5 or 10 rounds at each (usually) and compare them to past targets when I get home.

This has worked great with every gun I own, with the exception of my PT-92 and SA-35. I sold the beautiful Taurus PT-92AFS, and the buyer test shot it at my range. He was happy. As to my SA-35, I wouldn't want to write here what I now think about this gun. Miserable comes to mind. I keep sending it back to Springfield, and they may have gotten it as good as it's ever going to get.

I could spend $800 or so, and have BH Spring Solutions make it into a good gun, but why? I have recently bought the Springfield 1911 Range Officer Target, then had Dave Salyer improve it, and right now it shoots as well as I am capable of shooting with open sights.

All the magazines seem to love the SA-35 that they were sent, but Springfield must have two versions of this gun, one for the magazine testers, and the other for the suckers stupid enough to pay hundreds of dollars over the list price just to get one.... guilty. That's what I did. In retrospect, I should have never bought it, or waited for FN to release a quality High Power, but all of that is history now.

(I should add, that the SA-35 was not made for bullseye shooting, and maybe for its intended purpose, my gun is just fine. Maybe I'm just asking too much from it. I have my own limitations, lots of them, and after reading all the above responses, I can either accept the gun for what it is, or sell it. Thank you to all of you.)

 

[PWC]

How's your grip? Do you just pick up the gun and take your stance or do you use your off hand to snuggle the gun into position? Find the best fit, it may be sights along the arm or not.

Use your off hand straight arm pointy finger to point at something...then use your thumb. You'll feel the difference in arm support. Open your off hand cupped hand and snuggle in the shooting hand keeping the thumb fully forward. Just another grip to try, works for me, maybe not you.

For handgun, don't worry about dominant eye. Natural point of aim (NPA) is more important. Your right foot is anchored; move the left as necessary. Since your arms are unsupported, muscle memory thru practice is required; dryfire or not. Put a thumbtack in the wall just below shoulder height, practice NPA.

 

[mikemyers]

What I have learned to do - pick up gun with left hand, and push into right hand where it fits best.

I don't understand what you meant for my left hand - I wrap it around the gun as described in the video by Chris, covering up all the open space, and keeping it as high as possible. I don't pay any attention to my off-hand pointy finger, I just put my left thumb and have it pointing forwards, alongside the gun. I haven't tried (or heard of) opening my left hand and closing it again - new to me.

NPA - yes, close eyes, aim gun, open eyes, correct, close eyes, repeat.

I usually practice aiming at a blank wall, paying attention to what happens to the sights as I fire. The target is supposed to be blurry anyway.....

 

[bummer7]

Dryfire - yes, that is the single most important thing to improve at the range, meaning I do it almost every day, using a schedule I created, and using an app on my phone so it all gets done completely - usually between one and two hours every night, usually while watching a movie or something so I don't get bored. To me, the "work" is at home, in dry-fire. I am very strict on what I do, and how I do it. At the range, not. At the range I just "do" what I have practiced so hard at. The work is at home. The "test" is at the range. As Sgt. Keith Sanderson put it, for every live round I shoot at the range, I should dry-fire 100 rounds.

After doing the dry-fire just about every day, when I do get to the range, I shoot between one and four targets, 5 or 10 rounds at each (usually) and compare them to past targets when I get home.

This has worked great with every gun I own, with the exception of my PT-92 and SA-35. I sold the beautiful Taurus PT-92AFS, and the buyer test shot it at my range. He was happy. As to my SA-35, I wouldn't want to write here what I now think about this gun. Miserable comes to mind. I keep sending it back to Springfield, and they may have gotten it as good as it's ever going to get.

I could spend $800 or so, and have BH Spring Solutions make it into a good gun, but why? I have recently bought the Springfield 1911 Range Officer Target, then had Dave Salyer improve it, and right now it shoots as well as I am capable of shooting with open sights.

All the magazines seem to love the SA-35 that they were sent, but Springfield must have two versions of this gun, one for the magazine testers, and the other for the suckers stupid enough to pay hundreds of dollars over the list price just to get one.... guilty. That's what I did. In retrospect, I should have never bought it, or waited for FN to release a quality High Power, but all of that is history now.

(I should add, that the SA-35 was not made for bullseye shooting, and maybe for its intended purpose, my gun is just fine. Maybe I'm just asking too much from it. I have my own limitations, lots of them, and after reading all the above responses, I can either accept the gun for what it is, or sell it. Thank you to all of you.)

What is your shot plan when you are shooting bullseye? Is your shot plan written out? Do you follow it and revise it when things change?

Dry firing practice is good but I also think live fire reinforces good dryfire habits too. When you say your group size improves when you don't know when the gun goes off tells me you are focused on the front sight which is excellent. The key is doing this consistently regardless of whether is slow, timed, or rapid fire stage. I don't know about you but I can't shoot a full 2700 anymore. Like you, age is catching up to me. When at the range I will practice shooting a 600 match. 300 in rimfire and 300 in centerfire.

I know what you mean about the SA-35 pistol not being a BE pistol. I have an Beretta M9 I thought I would use for service pistol matches. However, the long creep of the trigger is not ideal for Bullseye. Although shooting 147gr bullets around 825 fps seems to show a lot of promise at the moment.

I think good equipment makes the game more interesting and fun. Your SA-35 pistol should be perfectly acceptable too unless you are striving to clean every target. Regardless of your equipment, have fun and enjoy yourself. And remember, for us, this is an avocation, not a vocation.

 

[PWC]

I don't understand what you meant for my left hand - I wrap it around the gun as described in the video by Chris, covering up all the open space, and keeping it as high as possible. I don't pay any attention to my off-hand pointy finger, I just put my left thumb and have it pointing forwards, alongside the gun. I haven't tried (or heard of) opening my left hand and closing it again - new to

I assumed you were a right hand shooter. Just use your off hand thumb as I said and you will have the off hand cupped. What Chris does has nothing to do with what I offered.

 

[damyankee425]

If you want to study one thing, study Bruce Lee's philosophy. Theres a clue

 

[JTQ]

Since you're dealing with a 1911 and essentially a Browning Hi-Power, this video from Doug Koenig is another to add to your viewing list.

 

[Rule3]

Grips are like stances, there are many different ways. Overall I agree with his grip. And finger placement (what works for you)

However he did not show the most important part and that was to show the firearm was cleared and safe,!!!

 

[mikemyers]

Dry firing practice is good but I also think live fire reinforces good dryfire habits too. When you say your group size improves when you don't know when the gun goes off tells me you are focused on the front sight which is excellent. The key is doing this consistently regardless of weather is slow, timed, or rapid fire stage......

I know what you mean about the SA-35 pistol not being a BE pistol. I have an Beretta M9 I thought I would use for service pistol matches. However, the long creep of the trigger is not ideal for Bullseye. Although shooting 147gr bullets around 825 fps seems to show a lot of promise at the moment.

I think good equipment makes the game more interesting and fun. Your SA-35 pistol should be perfectly acceptable too unless you are striving to clean every target. Regardless of your equipment, have fun and enjoy yourself. And remember, for us, this is an avocation, not a vocation.

I completely agree with what you wrote - you know me too well. My club does hold "bullseye matches", but at 15 and 25 yards, and anyone can use one hand or both. Sort of a "low key" match, for enjoyment I do well, but only shoot 22 (two handed). My next visit to the range will be with some 147 grain ammo, to see if I prefer it. Lots of people recommend it.


JTQ - will watch that video this evening, maybe more than once. Doug Koenig has made other videos I have watched - very helpful. THANK YOU for posting it here!!

PWC - yes, right handed, and I'm doing what you suggest, naturally, with both thumbs pointing forward.