Shopper with CCW Stops Carjacking

[627PCFan]

Chock up another one for the good citizens

OREM, Utah (AP) — Police say a shopper with a concealed weapons permit fatally shot a suspect to thwart a carjacking Saturday outside a Utah grocery store.

Investigators say the 31-year-old male shooter was in Macey’s parking lot in Orem, 45 miles south of Salt Lake City, when he heard a woman’s screams as she was being pulled from her SUV by the suspect.

The man told police he went to assist the woman and fired one round after the 27-year-old male suspect lunged at him in an attempt to grab his gun.

The suspect, who was shot in the chest, later died at a hospital.

http://wtop.com/food/2015/05/suspect-shot-dead-by-shopper-outside-utah-grocery-store/

1 shot, definitely not a 9mm then. LOL JK

 

[denton]

Happened about 5 blocks from where my daughter lives... same daughter I gave $50 to three years ago, and told her to go to a concealed carry permit class. She still has the $50.

 

[MEHavey]

There's a bit of background here:

[A] fight was reported [much earlier] in ...Orem at about 10:45 a.m Saturday. ... People at the scene told the officer the driver of the car had assaulted one of the girls at that location. When the officer tried to pull the vehicle over, the driver drove onto State Street in Orem.... then wrecked the vehicle...

A[nother] man then reported to police his truck had been stolen ... the suspect, driving the stolen truck, pulled into the Macey's parking lot [11:15] ...where he attempted to steal a woman's silver SUV.... woman was fighting and screaming for help.

...bystander ...concealed carry permit...ordered the suspect at gunpoint to get out of the SUV. ...Police say the suspect ... lunged at the man to take his gun. The man shot the suspect once in the chest.

[Although not yet publicly identified [until tomorrow/press conference] ... "Police say the man had several felony warrants"


.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Good guys....

I love it when the good guys win.
Some scumbag thug pulled a carjacking on a woman in a crowded mall near me last week.
The felon ran away from mall security then pulled a terrified woman from her vehicle.
The crook caused 4 different traffic accidents before LE officers on scene got him.

Be alert to danger signs around your parked vehicle and track the movements or actions of any sketchy people nearby.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

You mean he left his car with a gun instead of just running over the bad guy with a monster truck? How irresponsible!

Mike

 

[Plan2Live]

The Reader Commenters under the news story over on Yahoo are whooping it up high fiving each other over this event. They are ignoring the fact that stepping in and using lethal force on someone else's behalf is fraught with legal jeopardy. This could have been a high intensity domestic dispute being played out in public. If you are going to step in on someone else's behalf make sure you know the entire story start to finish.

 

[Jolly Rogers]

I am sorry that a person died but glad someone added Chlorine to the gene pool.
Joe

 

[MEHavey]

If you are going to step in on someone else's behalf
make sure you know the entire story start to finish.

You can't..., ever
Make a decision.
....seconds.
Live with it forever...
one way or the other

 

[drband]

You can't..., ever
Make a decision.
....seconds.
Live with it forever...
one way or the other

Wisdom!

 

[Plan2Live]

If it's not my fight I choose prudence over prison.

 

[FIGHT NIGHT]

Nevermind, no one cares.

 

[TimSr]

The man told police he went to assist the woman and fired one round after the 27-year-old male suspect lunged at him in an attempt to grab his gun.

So, did he kill a man over material possessions, or was he defending himself?

My guess is the victim is grateful he took the risk and got involved, and that probably means more to the good samaritan than the criticsm he receives for doing so.

 

[TimSr]

If it's not my fight I choose prudence over prison.

Which did this guy choose? Looks like he is not going to prison.

 

[Garrobo]

If this happened

in a Northeastern state like NY, NJ, CN, MD, NH, MA, etc. he would have been charged with murder.

 

[MEHavey]

Which is why many (most?) on this Forum most likely do not live in those locales.

 

[FIGHT NIGHT]

My guess is the victim is grateful he took the risk and got involved, and that probably means more to the good samaritan than the criticsm he receives for doing so.

Thanks, you speak way nicer about this than I could. I will always try to help and believe I would do a good job of accessing the situation before reacting.

 

[Plan2Live]

The entire event unfolded due to theft of property. The vehicle's owner was outside the vehicle as the vehicle was being stolen. She chose to fight for her purse. Property. No life was in danger at that point. Had she not attempted to extract her purse from the vehicle with the thief inside he would have driven away with property. The armed bystander came to the aid of someone not in a life threatening situation and inserted himself and his gun which then motivated the thief to lash out at someone pointing a gun at him, over property.

Had there been an occupant actually in the SUV while it was being carjacked I would probably have a different take on the event.

I choose to defend life, not property. I realize this is a divisive position but I think a lot of folks new to guns or new to the idea of carrying a gun for self defense find their way to this site and deserve to hear reasonable arguments for both sides.

 

[MEHavey]

I choose to defend life, not property.

While I understand your legal reasoning, that reasoning
applied across-the-borad also inevitably leads to the chaos
of the Purge and the destruction of civilized society at large.

If one has EVER been the victim of a violent mugging, your
self-image -- and that image in the eyes of others -- is never
the same. You have effectively been raped. And it does not
wear off in time.

...motivated the thief to lash out at someone pointing a gun at him,
over property.

And now we come full circle.
The violent thief... as victim

Apparently the cops don't see it that way...
nor, apparently, does Utah state law:
.
Police are hailing a man who shot and killed a would-be carjacker outside a Utah grocery store, saying he did the right thing by coming to the aid of the vehicle's owner....heard a woman's screams as she was being pulled from her SUV....

Police Capt. Ned Jackson ... cited Utah law, which allows the use of guns for self-defense and to prevent the commission of a forcible felony, including an attempted car theft. The fact the suspect was unarmed makes no difference because he tried to steal the SUV and posed a threat to the man, he added.

"I think you'll have some people say he (shooter) didn't have proper training, and some people will say stealing the car shouldn't be a capital offense," Jackson said. "I think you'll have other people who will say the citizen shouldn't have turned himself into a judge and jury."

"But I think he did the right thing by being involved and helping the woman. If it was someone's mother or sister, would they want this guy to step in and help them?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/04/utah-carjacking-suspect-shot_n_7202654.html

 

[Plan2Live]

While I understand your legal reasoning, that reasoning
applied across-the-borad also inevitably leads to the chaos
of the Purge and the destruction of civilized society at large.

Enforcing laws and preventing societal chaos is the job of law enforcement. Self defense is an entirely different subject than law enforcement. As for the justification for the use of lethal force, don't take my word, go read what Massad Ayoob defines as the justifiable use of deadly force. He has more credentials than I do.

And now we come full circle.
The violent thief... as victim

I am not suggesting the thief is the victim nor am I empathizing with him but I was demonstrating how convoluted what some view as an open and shut case can be or can get.

Our hero in this scenario had no idea if this was truly a carjacking or a legitimate property recovery effort. I have watched as irate owners kick, punch, scream and do everything in their power to keep a legitimate repo man from taking a vehicle. I watched and barley avoided being hit by one repo man driving his truck across someone's lawn to escape four people on foot chasing the tow truck and hurling bottles, rocks, etc. at the truck. This very easily could have been an opportunistic snatch and grab without the assistance of a tow truck. As I stated early on in this thread, unless you know the entire story start to finish you are putting yourself in legal jeopardy when you decide to step in on someone else's behalf, especially when you use lethal force.

 

[MEHavey]

As I stated early on in this thread, unless you
know the entire story start to finish ....

Neither you (nor anyone else) will ever "know the entire story start to finish."
YouI have to make a decision, and do it in a split second.

As you note, that decision may be to walk away and just "let it happen".

...preventing societal chaos is the job of law enforcement

I am speechless at such a position.
and will remain so from this point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Все, что необходимо для зло восторжествовало для хороших людей ничего не делать

 

[docsleepy]

Isn't this carjacking a forcible felony?

In Florida you may use a concealed weapon to stop a forcible felony.


(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27; s. 3, ch. 2014-195.

 

[docsleepy]

Reference:

Florida statutes
776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—

 

[RustyShackelford]

Actions, legal issues.....

While I agree that you shouldn't rush into situations you do not understand or aren't aware of the conditions, you also should not be risk adverse or let a victim be killed/seriously hurt because you didn't want to get sued or you were scared.

There's a video clip of a suspended New Mexico State trooper who goes berserk then starts to choke the tow truck driver who came to repo the cop's personal vehicle.
The trooper, about 6'08" was a mess. His anger and rage was obvious. The victim(tow truck driver) was no threat and pled with the trooper to let him go.
If I was there I'd call 911, then demand the trooper let the guy go. If that didn't work, I'd use lethal force. I'd feel my actions were valid and within the use of force laws. The cop was suspended and facing charges, his ex wife claimed he was violent & the incident was recorded.

Private citizens should not act like sworn LE officers but they shouldn't be risk adverse either. To wait or be aprensive might go you or someone else killed.

 

[docsleepy]

So I looked up "forcible felony " in florida:

776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.


Yep -- carjacking is a forcible felony

If a person REASONABLY believes that is going on, then they may apply deadly force to stop it. Also robbery!

Did the bystander reasonably believe a carjacking was going on? In florida, I believe a grand jury would answer Yes.

 

[TimSr]

I believe our hero ordered the carjacker to stop, and the carjacker then proceeded to attack the good samaritan, and THEN he fired.

I would imagine a professional repo man would have reacted differently.