Short Barrel Effectiveness

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rodwha

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So handguns have effectively been used for shorter range hunting of medium game. A ball or a bullet does rather well.

But what of the Howdah pistol? These were used to defend against tigers, which would take a fair amount of oomph as it needs to be effective quickly. Does anyone know what caliber and loads were used?

And then what of the 20 ga version? With a patched ball I could see this working for hunting at shorter ranges but what of using shot?

I’ve read that people believe 3F is too quick and will deform pellets. But I’m not sure even an energetic (Swiss, Olde E, T7) powder would produce a good amount of velocity unless maybe the shot were reduced to less than a square load. I’m a bit curious how a load such as 55 grns of energetic 2F/3F and 45 grns volume of #6 would work for small game, especially if the barrels were jug choked or screw-in choked, or using shot cups.
 
In SxS shoots when I shoot BP shells in the 12ga, 70grs of 3F and 1oz of shot is used and works very well. If the shot were deformed, patterns would suffer. With my jug choked trap gun, ink balls are still sometimes experienced when I center a target. This is with 7 1/2 or smaller. I've never been able to get buckshot to pattern worth a darn. I've read all about using buffer so the bigger balls don't move around while going down the barrel and I've tried it with no luck.The same velocities as smokeless powders can be easily produced with BP, at least up to 1300fps. But then, patterns usually get worse as velocity goes up. Against tigers, I'd be much more at ease with a nice big patched round ball.
 
Amen Paul, I would want to hit tigers with bowling balls as well, why have a dangerous animal get up and rearrange your innards? I have never tried buck shot in my muzzleloader 12 gauge so I have no pearls of wisdom on that one.
 
Tigers was an aside as I was curious what calibers/bores were used and how they were loaded. I’m more interested, since there are no tigers and wouldn’t hunt them anyway (but would use a patched ball in the 20 ga version or a custom conical with a wide meplat), in small game.

And my initial interest was to purchase a Lyman Plains Pistol with an additional barrel to have reamed to 28-24 ga, which has an even shorter barrel.
 
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The original "Howdah Pistols" originated with British representatives of the East India Company in about the mid-18th Century for use in hunting with various members of the Indian Raj and were cut down land pattern muskets (Brown Bess) of .75 caliber and smooth bore. As time went by and the demography and wealth of John Company officials evolved, country made SxS pistols in more manageable calibers of the .65 - .62 range became more common. They were generally equipped with 10" - 12" barrels, longer than cavalry and sea service pistols of the same era, and always used ball. Accuracy was not a key requirement as their intended use was not to hunt tigers but to defend against tigers attacking the elephant on which the howdah (a wicker basket) was mounted. With the advent of breech loading rifles, some howdah pistols were made in .577 Snider and rifled but the ball load in 12 - 20 ga apparently remained popular.

There are no applications where, when loaded with shot, a smoothbore pistol would serve well on small game, unless shooting rodents at very close range. Loss of velocity is considerable and patterns will be poor, regardless of choke constriction or style. A longer barrel allows the shot stream to form before any constriction takes place.
 
Thanks for the history as well as the info on shot usage not working well.
 
An unchoked smoothbore pistol will work with large shot loads at short range but just not with timid loads.
I loaded a .667 Sea Service pistol with square loads of about 90 grains of mixed shot sizes and 3F Goex Clear Shot powder
and fired it twice at about 10-12 yards.

Then I loaded it twice with ten 40 grain .22lr bullets that were pulled from misfires.
The 1st shot was pulled left and mostly hit the edges of the target, so I moved closer to about 5-7 yards and hit closer to the center.

I think that a similar #6 shot load would work to about 15-20 yards if enough shot were used and the pistol hit to the point of aim.
Especially with a longer barreled modern Howdah pistol such as what Pedersoli makes.

I only experimented using newspaper as wadding under & over the shot charge.
The last photo was of the closer shot and it really recoiled due to the light pistol and heavy load.
It was the 1st times that I fired it.
Personally I think that a buckshot load would be able to penetrate the skull of a lion at a close enough range to possibly incapacitate or blind it,
without as much risk of missing the moving target while providing a margin for error.

P1030297a40-200%.jpg P1030300a50-200%.jpg P1030286a25-200%.jpg untitledaa-200%.jpg
 
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Interesting. Wonder what kind of penetration it gives though.

Rather curious if choked and using more powder to lead with heavier than typical shot (used 7 1/2 for everything small game/small bird).

Your barrel looks a bit shorter than the Lyman at 9”. I’m not so sure you consumed all of that powder (90 grns?).

I’ve been looking at barrels for my Lyman rifle. Many come longer than I’d want easy to lop off a foot and use that. But if a 12” barrel just won’t work out to at least 15 yds I don’t see the point.
 
I edited my post to having loaded "mixed shot" instead of #7.5 because I forgot, it was a long time ago.

I think that its usefulness is for the variety of projectiles that it can be loaded it.
For instance, here we can shoot small game such as squirrels during deer season.
But one can only carry a muzzle loader during ML deer season, so any smoothbore offers some options while ML deer hunting if the opportunity arises
and nothing else is moving in the woods.

I've seen .50 smoothbore rifles, and suspect that they need to be loaded up with a good amount of shot to be effective since they don't have a choke.

There's also 18" short barrel .410 single shot Snake Charmer or Tamer shotguns that can be easily converted into a 209 muzzle loader with a chamber adapter,
as can nearly any other gauge. At least most of those have a choke and some youth models 20's have short barrels in the 20" - 22" inch range.
Or they can easily be loaded with black powder shotshells without any special loading equipment.
 
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As has been mentioned, the Howdah pistol was designed for self defense at very close ranges. I believe an average distance from the hunter to the ground was about 20 feet or less, assuming the hunter is standing on the platform/basket (howdah) shooting down at the tiger before the animal has jumped upwards onto the elephant's head, trying to get to the elephant handler. ;)

NOW if you're Mad Max, or if you lived where it was illegal to have a breech loading handgun for self-defence in your home, as it once was in Washington DC..., it might be just the ticket. Though I'd probably try to swap out the nipples for sealed adaptors that would use modern primers, if it was for home SD...,

One quote about the pistol during the age of tiger hunting in India reads, "...to be effective [with the Howdah pistol], the muzzle must be placed close to the tiger’s head, and care must be taken not to kill the mahout [the elephant handler].” YEAH you're a foot or two from several hundred pounds of teeth and claws covered in orange and black fur, that's pissed-off and might even be already wounded...and you need to take careful aim....:confused:

While true Howdahs were first produced as caplocks, they eventually moved into breech loading cartridges including the .476 Enfield ( with a punny 18 grain black powder load) and the .577 Snider. Apparently the cartridges in closed breech pistols with barrels longer than revolvers, gave a bit better performance than British revolvers of the day. (Pedersoli now offers a .410/.45 Colt version) Back in the day improving the performance of British pistol cartridges would be good, since the .476 Enfield was interchangable with the .455 Webley cartridge, and the .455 Webly from a revolver of the era launches a 265 grain lead projectile at about 600-750 fps. Not really what you'd want when facing a tiger, up close and personal. :confused: The .577 Snider from a rifle delivers a 450-480 grain lead bullet at about 1300 fps, but that's from a 36" barrel, while a Howdah chambered in the same cartridge probably had a barrel 1/3 that length. Still it would be better to deliver 450 grains of lead at about 700-900 fps, than 265 grains using the .476 Enfield.

However, as late as 1875 a caplock SxS Howdah pistol in 16 gauge was made as a presentation piece for a royal tour of India, and perhaps it was more than a mere gift. Lancaster made double and quad cartridge pistols for British officers up to and through the 2nd Boer War, of the first decade of the 20th century. So there was probably something to the idea the pistol cartridges did better from a breech loader instead of the revolver.

An online article did a test on a caplock Howdah in 16 gauge, having a manufacture dated to 1825, with 7½" barrels. A 410 grain, .648 caliber ball was fired with a .018 patch, and at 50 grains of 2Fg, the muzzle velocity was 719 fps. Not too shabby, though with the added 4½" from the Pedersoli Howdah, shooting a .600, 325 grain ball, you'd likely get much better MV.

The author wrote,
"...shooting the pistol can only be described as 'brutal' - my knuckles were bruised, and my wrists felt like they were hit with a bat. ..., The accuracy of the pistol was at best modest, particularly as its light weight and heavy ball made it hard to control, and the off-center kick moved the impact point a good eight inches to the side which was fired."
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/purdey_howdah/howdah.html
No telling what a 20 gauge would do to you.

In my state, hunting deer with a muzzle loading handgun, one must use a minimum of 40 grains of powder. The Pedersoli Howdah in .58, which is rifled at 1:24, would probably be very good on a deer at 25 yards. The 20 gauge with say 55 grains of powder and 3/4 of an ounce of birdshot might be OK for chukkar or quail when hunting with a dog so you could cock the piece prior to flushing the birds. The breech loading, .410/.45 Colt version from Pedersoli is rifled..., so would suck using a .410 shell with a load of birdshot (imho).

LD
 
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Mad Max certainly added to my interest in the Howdah. But I generally want an actual use for my toys.

We often read of the tuna can penetration test being conducted to ascertain whether or not a shot load is adequate for turkey hunting. Is this assuming a shot to the body needing to penetrate all of those feathers? Or is it that this is what’s needed to kill the turkey shooting his head/neck?

I’m still contemplating a Lyman barrel in 28-24 ga and could test penetration prior to potentially getting it threaded for a screw-in choke system, which is what I assume it would need to be effective for rabbits and squirrels figuring I’d start with a load shown as max for the .54 cal (50 grns 3F and 224 grns of lead). If it proves ineffective it might still work ok at a smoothbore shooting patched ball.
 
Don't know why it wouldn't work. I would try plastic shot cups with 7/8 ounce of shot and see how it patterns, might surprise you.
 
Thinking still it a better idea to work with the Lyman Plains Pistol and working with that as it’s cheaper. Our little deer don’t need a 20 ga ball to put down, though I suppose it would be nice to have in hand were I to need to track down a wounded hog! $800 sure is pricey though... And I have a ROA for that role anyway.

As I want to have drop-in barrels for my Lyman Deerstalker making it akin to a T/C Contender I could likely end up with a foot of 15/16” leftover to work with on a Lyman Plains Pistol.

With a choke I figure the pattern should be workable to 20 yds or so. It’s the velocity I’m more concerned with, which is why I’d up the shot size a bit (#6 or 5).

The British 28 ga square load was 55 grns 2F with 5/8 oz shot for about 1050 fps from what used to be available by Circle Fly. Don’t know what length barrel that would have been but maybe 3 times the length of the pistol barrel. With a full/extra full choke I don’t feel I’d need 5/8 oz of shot and so with 1/2 oz it would help bring up the velocity. And since the distance would be shorter I wouldn’t really need to achieve 1050 fps anyway.

I’d need a cylinder choke as well for loading and shooting patched balls.
 
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I was amazed by the power from a 2 inch barrel later in this vid is a longer barrel howdah like pistol in .44 which is normally a screamer compared to the revolvers I shoot but it was recently cleaned and the ball slipped in way too easy by my reckoning and I think that reduced my power also I was using soft pure lead normally with the howdah like/minnie howdah I use wheel weight lead.Also I was saying wad but was thinking patch.
 
damoc said:
I was amazed by the power from a 2 inch barrel later in this vid is a longer barrel howdah like pistol in .44 which is normally a screamer compared to the revolvers I shoot but it was recently cleaned and the ball slipped in way too easy by my reckoning and I think that reduced my power also I was using soft pure lead normally with the howdah like/minnie howdah I use wheel weight lead.Also I was saying wad but was thinking patch.
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Interesting! Thanks for sharing!

A few questions for you:

What powder(s) were you using?

What were the diameters of the balls used? For muzzleloaders it seems typical that the ball is 0.1” below barrel diameter but for using patches, which you did not.

Is there a rear sight to your .44? Didn’t notice one.

Is your .44 rifled or smooth?

IIRC the military then felt that 1” penetration in a pine board was considered lethal. I’m not sure how that equates to penetration of flesh and bone, but these guns and loads seemed to have just barely reached that. Surprised the .44 didn’t do much better, but you can also see how much easier they were to load.

I’ve often wondered just how effective the .31 cal pistols truly were back when they were used. It seems the .32 ACP isn’t well regarded for being very effective.

I’d love to have a pistol like that in 28 ga. Seems about perfect to me as they can generally handle the typical 20 ga British loads and use plenty of ball for use against anything you’d really need to in the lower 48.

I’m also curious about the knife/machete you used. What is it?
 
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Real BP ground,mixed and granulated on site its about 25% less effective by volume than commercial or subs but not really any dirtier.The .44 is rifled and normally its harder to pound down the ball I had the same problem with the first shot from the derringer it just went pop but after it built up a bit of fouling it performed much better..314 ball for the derringer .454 for the wanna be howdah no rear sight per se but it has a mounting screw that if kept turned down the barrel works very well if a little hard to see.The knife/Machete is some form of old butcher knife that a friend gave me I love it and will need to rehandle it one of these days.
 
damoc said:
Real BP ground,mixed and granulated on site its about 25% less effective by volume than commercial or subs but not really any dirtier.The .44 is rifled and normally its harder to pound down the ball I had the same problem with the first shot from the derringer it just went pop but after it built up a bit of fouling it performed much better..314 ball for the derringer .454 for the wanna be howdah no rear sight per se but it has a mounting screw that if kept turned down the barrel works very well if a little hard to see.The knife/Machete is some form of old butcher knife that a friend gave me I love it and will need to rehandle it one of these days.
Click to expand...

Did you make the BP yourself? What granulation is it?

You say it’s less effective than commercial stuff. Less velocity compared to say standard Goex?

The knife seems quite cool. Been looking at various knives that work well as choppers.
 
Bug screen G basically a mix of meal powder,fffg and fg if I was to use commercial BP I would only have to use .75% as much for the same performance mostly because I cannot compress the mixture the way the commercial product/granules are.In some ways this is good I just fully load the cyl's in my revolvers and can set the bullet right on top and it works very well.
 
rodwha said:
...,With a choke I figure the pattern should be workable to 20 yds or so. It’s the velocity I’m more concerned with, which is why I’d up the shot size a bit (#6 or 5)....,
. With a full/extra full choke I don’t feel I’d need 5/8 oz of shot and so with 1/2 oz it would help bring up the velocity. ....I’d need a cylinder choke as well for loading and shooting patched balls.
Click to expand...

Actually what you need is Jug Choking. Choking of any sort is just a quick restriction of the barrel diameter about 1-2 inches from the muzzle. So in a modern 28 gauge [.550], the end of the barrel squeezes down. BUT before that became the accepted method that then evolved into screw-in adaptors to change the amount of restriction as wished..., there was jug choking. The barrel bore in a 28 gauge would remain at .550 BUT a portion about 1" long, about 2.5" from the muzzle would be internally widened a few thousandsth of an inch. So for Modified choke the barrel would expand to .570, and for Full to .580. Then for the last 1.5 inches it would gradually return to .550 at the muzzle. You'd get the same effect as a modern choke tube, AND you'd still be able to load powder, a wad, and a round ball, for deer. It's a lot simpler to do.

LD
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Actually what you need is Jug Choking. Choking of any sort is just a quick restriction of the barrel diameter about 1-2 inches from the muzzle. So in a modern 28 gauge [.550], the end of the barrel squeezes down. BUT before that became the accepted method that then evolved into screw-in adaptors to change the amount of restriction as wished..., there was jug choking. The barrel bore in a 28 gauge would remain at .550 BUT a portion about 1" long, about 2.5" from the muzzle would be internally widened a few thousandsth of an inch. So for Modified choke the barrel would expand to .570, and for Full to .580. Then for the last 1.5 inches it would gradually return to .550 at the muzzle. You'd get the same effect as a modern choke tube, AND you'd still be able to load powder, a wad, and a round ball, for deer. It's a lot simpler to do.

LD
Click to expand...

I’ve looked in to that but can’t find anyone who does it on bores under 20ga. It sure would make loading easier!

Doesn’t jug choking mimic a modified choke?
 
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