Would learning to shoot trap and/or skeet with an 18 1/2 or 20 inch barrel be like swinging two bats before getting into the batters box? In other words, if you learn to hit the clays with a short barrel, is it that much easier when you shoot with a longer barrel? Or is it ridiculous to even contemplate this? Thanks.
Short Barrel for Trap/Skeet?
- Thread starter perpster
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The short barrel is light and somewhat whippy.
Less weight is easier to stop, stop the gun score the bird a lost target.
In practice a light whippy gun has a fast jerky motion, it can be overcome with practice.
The longer barreled gun will have more weight forward, this can be slower on the intail move, steady in the swing, and harder to stop. Actual fact, these are really all positives, subjective maybe, but I have done the test, and failed!
The tool is only as good as the workman, some people can learn one tool, as in the 18 to 20 inch barrel and be good craftsman, but take sometime to adjust to the heavier tool, going the other way, I just don't like! STRANGE I say STRANGE!
The short barrel is light and somewhat whippy.
Less weight is easier to stop, stop the gun score the bird a lost target.
In practice a light whippy gun has a fast jerky motion, it can be overcome with practice.
The longer barreled gun will have more weight forward, this can be slower on the intail move, steady in the swing, and harder to stop. Actual fact, these are really all positives, subjective maybe, but I have done the test, and failed!
The tool is only as good as the workman, some people can learn one tool, as in the 18 to 20 inch barrel and be good craftsman, but take sometime to adjust to the heavier tool, going the other way, I just don't like! STRANGE I say STRANGE!
ArchAngelCD
Member.
As in handguns, a short barrel translates into a short sight radius. The shorter the sight radius the more difficult it is to shoot accurately.
IMO there is no reason to shoot a short barrel shotgun while breaking clays. A 26" or 28" barrel with a Skeet Choke installed will be a lot of fun since it's always more fun to hit what you are shooting at.
IMO there is no reason to shoot a short barrel shotgun while breaking clays. A 26" or 28" barrel with a Skeet Choke installed will be a lot of fun since it's always more fun to hit what you are shooting at.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Most short barrels have little choke. These can work for skeet, but trap requires at least IC and that with good ammo.
Short barrels have little inertia as mentioned, but if that's what you have, go for it.
Most modern repeaters can swap barrels in a twinkling. Many of these barrels are sold at reasonable prices. USe what you have until you can pick up a longer barrel.
For clay games with a well worn 870, I like at least a 28" barrel. I tend to use a Light Full or Mod choke for trap, a Skeet or Cylinder choke for skeet, and a Light Mod for SC.
HTH....
Short barrels have little inertia as mentioned, but if that's what you have, go for it.
Most modern repeaters can swap barrels in a twinkling. Many of these barrels are sold at reasonable prices. USe what you have until you can pick up a longer barrel.
For clay games with a well worn 870, I like at least a 28" barrel. I tend to use a Light Full or Mod choke for trap, a Skeet or Cylinder choke for skeet, and a Light Mod for SC.
HTH....
I have just started trying trap and skeet. I have 2 shotguns: Mossberg 590A1and Mossberg 500. The 590A1 has an 18.5" heavy wall barrel, bright orange insert ramp front sight. The 500 has a 28" barrel with bead sights (one near muzzle, one part way down). There's what appears to be a choke screwed in on the 28" barrel but I don't have a choke wrench (bought the gun used).
Because the 590A1 has the heavy wall barrel it is actually a bit heavier than the longer but thinner walled 500. There was less felt recoil with the 590. I wonder if the heavier weight is helpful for barrel momentum referred to above.
I found the orange front sight on the 590 to be much easier to use than the dull pearl colored bead on the 500. I know(?) one is not supposed to sight the gun in trap/skeet but even without aligning the sights so to speak it was very easy to pick up in the field of view. It was also not hard to "ignore" the ghost ring on the 590.
I'll probably be concentrating on trap more for a while, and then get into skeet a bit more.
Am I nuts still using the 590? Should I leave it home and just use the 500/28" setup? Seems to me that if I can get good hits with the 590A1 at trap (which I was doing, but from the forward firing positions; I didn't try from the rear positions yet), it will sharpen me up etc. No?
Incidentally, how is the length of a shotgun barrel measured? From the muzzle to where?
Because the 590A1 has the heavy wall barrel it is actually a bit heavier than the longer but thinner walled 500. There was less felt recoil with the 590. I wonder if the heavier weight is helpful for barrel momentum referred to above.
I found the orange front sight on the 590 to be much easier to use than the dull pearl colored bead on the 500. I know(?) one is not supposed to sight the gun in trap/skeet but even without aligning the sights so to speak it was very easy to pick up in the field of view. It was also not hard to "ignore" the ghost ring on the 590.
I'll probably be concentrating on trap more for a while, and then get into skeet a bit more.
Am I nuts still using the 590? Should I leave it home and just use the 500/28" setup? Seems to me that if I can get good hits with the 590A1 at trap (which I was doing, but from the forward firing positions; I didn't try from the rear positions yet), it will sharpen me up etc. No?
Incidentally, how is the length of a shotgun barrel measured? From the muzzle to where?
You can hit some of the targets.
You could also play golf with nothing but a putter. But it would be irresponsible to recommend that someone learn the game that way.
Shotguns are like golf clubs. They are made to fit you and swing naturally according to the intended use.
Skeet is a better bet than trap with a shorter barrel and an open choke. The targets are close, and fly by quickly, so a whippy gun with an open pattern works okay. Still, good skeet shooters shoot longer guns, and for a reason. Leads are REALLY hard if the gun isn't swinging smoothly through the target.
Forget trap, except for the hell of it. OAL of a serious trap gun is generally 50"+, and weight over 8 lb, and IM to Full chokes are the most common. The way the targets fly, that is the gun that works.
Hitting moving, flying targets is completely different from Doc Holliday'ing a home invader or a stationary target. And it's addictive as hell!
You could also play golf with nothing but a putter. But it would be irresponsible to recommend that someone learn the game that way.
Shotguns are like golf clubs. They are made to fit you and swing naturally according to the intended use.
Skeet is a better bet than trap with a shorter barrel and an open choke. The targets are close, and fly by quickly, so a whippy gun with an open pattern works okay. Still, good skeet shooters shoot longer guns, and for a reason. Leads are REALLY hard if the gun isn't swinging smoothly through the target.
Forget trap, except for the hell of it. OAL of a serious trap gun is generally 50"+, and weight over 8 lb, and IM to Full chokes are the most common. The way the targets fly, that is the gun that works.
Hitting moving, flying targets is completely different from Doc Holliday'ing a home invader or a stationary target. And it's addictive as hell!
skeeter1
Member
That won't work on a trap range
Standard trap shooting, you only get one shot, no "follow-ups." The long barrel is there for "follow-through." I have shot trap with a 26" barrel, but that's the shortest I would suggest and now recommend. You would be better off with a 28-30" barrel for trapshooting.
Skeet is another story. 26" would be perfect, and you're dealing with shorter ranges and more open chokes. Still, you only get one shot/target.
Standard trap shooting, you only get one shot, no "follow-ups." The long barrel is there for "follow-through." I have shot trap with a 26" barrel, but that's the shortest I would suggest and now recommend. You would be better off with a 28-30" barrel for trapshooting.
Skeet is another story. 26" would be perfect, and you're dealing with shorter ranges and more open chokes. Still, you only get one shot/target.
MCgunner
Member
It can be done. I don't think it'd be like swinging two bats before an at bat. You'd get used to the whippy barrel, then you'd go to the longer barrel with the smoother, slower swing and it'd mess you ALL up. JMHO though. I recently hunted with a 20 gauge 20" coach gun (screw in chokes) and did about as well on dove as I do with my longer 12 gauge repeaters. Just gotta get used to the odd balance and quick point and swing. Takes concentration and follow through. I wouldn't recommend it for the novice shotgunner, but I like the little fart. LOL Hunting's one thing. It'd be way out of its element shooting trap.
esmith
Member
I shot skeet today with my winchester 1200 with a riot barrel. And its little. They were hand thrown so they werent far away. It worked fine.
It helps to have experience with full-length guns. Once you know what a swing looks and feels like, you can, with some effort, replicate that with anything, even a little carbine. I've shot hand-thrown clays with a Mini-14, and hit them, too.
HOWEVER, it's one thing to have muscle memory from practice with appropriate equipment, and adapt what you've learned to different equipment, and a whole other thing to try to learn with the wrong equipment.
esmith
Member
What is wrong with hand throwing skeet?
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Esmith, one clay game is skeet, the targets are clay pigeons. Common misnomer..
Re short barrels.....
A decade and more ago I was good to go with a 21" barreled 870, yclept Frankenstein. It took birds from Giant Canadas to a ruffed grouse, and plenty of species in between. It worked for clays, both trap and SC.
One reason it worked was I was quite used to short barrelled 870s, and shot them much.
These days I do better with longer barreled shotguns, and switching to Frank with that bunty barrel takes me a few swings to adjust.
The inertia just isn't there to help me. I HAVE to do the work myself, any laziness on my part means a lost bird.
But, if all my longer barrels vanished, I could readjust and shoot passably.
Heck, I shot Superreverb's virgin riot gun at 30 yards crossers last Friday and did OK when I pretended the open sights were a vent rib and kept my eye on the bird.
Give your shotgun with short barrel your best shot.....
Re short barrels.....
A decade and more ago I was good to go with a 21" barreled 870, yclept Frankenstein. It took birds from Giant Canadas to a ruffed grouse, and plenty of species in between. It worked for clays, both trap and SC.
One reason it worked was I was quite used to short barrelled 870s, and shot them much.
These days I do better with longer barreled shotguns, and switching to Frank with that bunty barrel takes me a few swings to adjust.
The inertia just isn't there to help me. I HAVE to do the work myself, any laziness on my part means a lost bird.
But, if all my longer barrels vanished, I could readjust and shoot passably.
Heck, I shot Superreverb's virgin riot gun at 30 yards crossers last Friday and did OK when I pretended the open sights were a vent rib and kept my eye on the bird.
Give your shotgun with short barrel your best shot.....
Shell Shucker
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- 189
Nothing wrong with hand thrown targets. Hand thrown targets are a lot of fun and a great way to learn. They are how I got started and probably how my son will get started.
Hand thrown targets are NOT skeet (or trap, sporting clays, ect.). Skeet is an organized game with a high house, a low house, and eight stations in a half circle.
Back on topic: You can shoot skeet or trap with a 20" barrel. Doing so IS a handicap. I don't think that learning with one will make you a better shooter once you switch to a longer barrel. Doing so will only make reaching your goal harder/take longer.
Hand thrown targets are NOT skeet (or trap, sporting clays, ect.). Skeet is an organized game with a high house, a low house, and eight stations in a half circle.
Back on topic: You can shoot skeet or trap with a 20" barrel. Doing so IS a handicap. I don't think that learning with one will make you a better shooter once you switch to a longer barrel. Doing so will only make reaching your goal harder/take longer.
Nothing wrong with hand throwing clay pigeons.
However, driving around the block really fast is not NASCAR, and trying to beat up a kid with a ball in his hand isn't Rugby. Skeet is a particular sport, with a bunch of very specific rules, and a specific course to shoot. It's not a generic term for shooting at clay pigeons. That's all.
Back to the subject of short barrels... when learning a new sport, I am of the opinion that one should not handicap himself. It's hard enough already, without introducing additional complications. You could run your first 10K in flip-flops, too. But no experienced runner or sport trainer would suggest you do it. A podiatrist might, but only if he's really greedy and rather unethical.
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esmith
Member
Sorry i made a common mistake.
[email protected]
member
I am not an expert at skeet but I do shoot it and I enjoy it. I actually prefer my shorter barrels over longer ones.
I shoot much better with my Rem 870 HD 18" cyl bore than I do with my bother's O/U with 28" barrels of imp cyl and Mod.
I have been trying out 20ga guns lately and I have noticed that a longer barrel is nice because it still handles nice but aids a bit in pointing.
I think the bottom line is, the barrel length is not the big concern. How the gun handles is far more important than what barrel length you have. Bottom line is, find a gun that fits you well and one that feels "alive" when you handle it and you will do better with that than with anything else.
Shotguns are not rifles, they don't have to be anything special. The sight differences in quality between a $20,000 gun and a $200 gun are not going to effect you as much as the handling qualities.
What I mean by that is, the trigger, sights, bore, and all the other things that are improved in an expensive shotgun don't count for much by themselves. How it handles and feels will be more important when you are trying to hit something. Unlike a rifle, where in general, the more expensive it is, the more accurate it is, a shotgun doesn't really get more "accurate".
In general, an expesive shotgun will feel better than a $200 870 but not always. If that $20,000 gun doesn't fit you and feel right, you are better off with a cheap gun that does.
Sorry to drone on but it has taken me a long time to figuire out some simple things. I have learned one simple truth with shotguns, fit, feel and handling is everything. You can go to a store and buy a gun that will probably work for you just by holding it. There is no way to tell if a rifle is a good shooter without shooting it. That is the difference.
I shoot much better with my Rem 870 HD 18" cyl bore than I do with my bother's O/U with 28" barrels of imp cyl and Mod.
I have been trying out 20ga guns lately and I have noticed that a longer barrel is nice because it still handles nice but aids a bit in pointing.
I think the bottom line is, the barrel length is not the big concern. How the gun handles is far more important than what barrel length you have. Bottom line is, find a gun that fits you well and one that feels "alive" when you handle it and you will do better with that than with anything else.
Shotguns are not rifles, they don't have to be anything special. The sight differences in quality between a $20,000 gun and a $200 gun are not going to effect you as much as the handling qualities.
What I mean by that is, the trigger, sights, bore, and all the other things that are improved in an expensive shotgun don't count for much by themselves. How it handles and feels will be more important when you are trying to hit something. Unlike a rifle, where in general, the more expensive it is, the more accurate it is, a shotgun doesn't really get more "accurate".
In general, an expesive shotgun will feel better than a $200 870 but not always. If that $20,000 gun doesn't fit you and feel right, you are better off with a cheap gun that does.
Sorry to drone on but it has taken me a long time to figuire out some simple things. I have learned one simple truth with shotguns, fit, feel and handling is everything. You can go to a store and buy a gun that will probably work for you just by holding it. There is no way to tell if a rifle is a good shooter without shooting it. That is the difference.
EXACTLY!
For trap, an 18" barrel tends to handle in such a way as to make hitting targets really hard. Skeet, not so much.
Note that a receiver gun tends to be 3-4" longer than a break-action with the same barrel length. An 18.5" 870 is only a few inches shorter than a 26" O/U.
Trumpetman
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- Jul 13, 2005
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Short barrels for arthritis and fibromyalgia syndrome patients
I felt a need to resurrect this thread because of a special situation I have. I hope you don't mind. Some feedback would be appreciated
Here's the deal. I would like to shoot a few games of trap now and then, but I am physically unable to swing a long-barrelled gun, or even carry a heavy gun in the field. At age 53, I have severe tendonitis in my right elbow, two kinds of arthritis, lupus, and fibromyalgia. These ailments make all physical activities very painful, and some of them impossible, but I can still shoot. I really miss the game of trap, and I am willing to accept a certain amount of pain in exchange for the pleasure of shooting again, but I just can't handle a long gun.
Would it be acceptable if I used my 20 inch barrel "coach gun" for trap? If I was shooting at your range with a short barrelled gun, would you be offended? I don't know the guys who shoot at my club, as I am a relative newcomer. My gun has six chokes, including IM and Full. It swings fine for for me (in my particular situation) with hand-thrown clays out in the field, and I am able to hit quite a few birds from most distances, given the proper choke. I even busted one bird yesterday with IC at 35 yards (lucky spread, I suppose). The guy throwing for me was trying to keep them close, but a few of them got away from him. That didn't keep me from shooting at them.
I don't expect to break 25, or even 20 for that matter. At my range they emphasize shooting "for fun," but I wonder if that's just 'words.' They also said that about shooting steel plates with handguns too, but those guys are out for blood.
What do you think? I was planning to shoot a couple of rounds this Thursday (May 22). Should I give it a try with a coach gun?
I felt a need to resurrect this thread because of a special situation I have. I hope you don't mind. Some feedback would be appreciated
Here's the deal. I would like to shoot a few games of trap now and then, but I am physically unable to swing a long-barrelled gun, or even carry a heavy gun in the field. At age 53, I have severe tendonitis in my right elbow, two kinds of arthritis, lupus, and fibromyalgia. These ailments make all physical activities very painful, and some of them impossible, but I can still shoot. I really miss the game of trap, and I am willing to accept a certain amount of pain in exchange for the pleasure of shooting again, but I just can't handle a long gun.
Would it be acceptable if I used my 20 inch barrel "coach gun" for trap? If I was shooting at your range with a short barrelled gun, would you be offended? I don't know the guys who shoot at my club, as I am a relative newcomer. My gun has six chokes, including IM and Full. It swings fine for for me (in my particular situation) with hand-thrown clays out in the field, and I am able to hit quite a few birds from most distances, given the proper choke. I even busted one bird yesterday with IC at 35 yards (lucky spread, I suppose). The guy throwing for me was trying to keep them close, but a few of them got away from him. That didn't keep me from shooting at them.
I don't expect to break 25, or even 20 for that matter. At my range they emphasize shooting "for fun," but I wonder if that's just 'words.' They also said that about shooting steel plates with handguns too, but those guys are out for blood.
What do you think? I was planning to shoot a couple of rounds this Thursday (May 22). Should I give it a try with a coach gun?
Virginian
Member
If you want to try it, have at it, it's not illegal or anything. But, I think before long you will be saving your money to buy a longer barrel. If you like it with the short barrel, that's okay too.
cluttonfred
Member
If you did want to pursue this, the gun that comes to mind off the top of my head is the Stoeger Condor Outback. The rifle sights might be a distraction for skeet, though good for an all-purpose scattergun, and it's one of the few short-barrelled shotguns I know of with removable choke tubes.
STANDARD FEATURES
Choke tubes: IC and M
Stocks: A-grade satin walnut and black finished hardwood
Trigger: Single trigger
Sights: Notched rear and fixed blade front
OPTIONAL FEATURES
Choke tubes: Flush and extended C, IC, M, IM, and F
SPECIFICATIONS
OUTBACK (NICKLE/BLACK) 2-3/4” AND 3”
31080* 20” Black 12 Screw-in 36” 7.0 lbs. $449
31081* 20” Black 20 Screw-in 36” 6.5 lbs. $449
OUTBACK (AMERICAN WALNUT) 2-3/4” AND 3”
31082* 20” A-Grade 12 Screw-in 36” 7.0 lbs. $369
31083* 20” A-Grade 20 Screw-in 36” 6.5 lbs. $369
Length of Pull: 14-1/2”/Youth 13” Drop at Comb: 1-1/2” Drop at Heel: 2-1/2”
STANDARD FEATURES
Choke tubes: IC and M
Stocks: A-grade satin walnut and black finished hardwood
Trigger: Single trigger
Sights: Notched rear and fixed blade front
OPTIONAL FEATURES
Choke tubes: Flush and extended C, IC, M, IM, and F
SPECIFICATIONS
OUTBACK (NICKLE/BLACK) 2-3/4” AND 3”
31080* 20” Black 12 Screw-in 36” 7.0 lbs. $449
31081* 20” Black 20 Screw-in 36” 6.5 lbs. $449
OUTBACK (AMERICAN WALNUT) 2-3/4” AND 3”
31082* 20” A-Grade 12 Screw-in 36” 7.0 lbs. $369
31083* 20” A-Grade 20 Screw-in 36” 6.5 lbs. $369
Length of Pull: 14-1/2”/Youth 13” Drop at Comb: 1-1/2” Drop at Heel: 2-1/2”
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Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Have at it, Trumpetman. While a coach gun is not ideal, you can make it work.
Some ranges have rules about minimum barrel length. Check before you go.
A short barreled gun has less mass to keep swinging. You'll have to concentrate on keeping the swing going. The gun will not do it for you as with more conventional target shotguns.
Good luck and keep us posted. We're pulling for you....
Some ranges have rules about minimum barrel length. Check before you go.
A short barreled gun has less mass to keep swinging. You'll have to concentrate on keeping the swing going. The gun will not do it for you as with more conventional target shotguns.
Good luck and keep us posted. We're pulling for you....
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