Short sticks

[AStone]

^ Excellent point, well said.

I love whimpy little arrows, too.

And whippy little calibers, like .30-30.

 

[JimStC]

The flute is ideal insofar as hidden in plain sight goes. I see the purpose clearly.

Jim

 

[Gordon]

And you can use the flute with curare tipped darts !

 

[Owen Sparks]

An improper weapon is far better than no weapon.

I am not too sure about that. I learned the hard way about lightweight sticks when I tried to break up a dog fight with an official 7 ounce rattan 'martial arts' stick. It had absolutely NO effect on the two 80 pound dogs. I doubt it would be any more effective on a crack head three times that size. Light sticks lack penetration. They can make a stinging welt to the skin but because they lack mass the energy does not penetrate enough to cause deep tissue trauma.

Rattan is used in martial arts practice precisely because its light weight makes it unlikely to cause a serious injury in case of an accident. It can also be twirled and swung very fast for impressive martial arts form demonstrations where the tendency is to use something a little bit lighter and a little bit faster until the stick is no longer a weapon but an accessory to a highly stylized dance.

 

[Needles]

Switch to waxwood, or learn to jab.

 

[sidheshooter]

I'm with Owen. Here is a real "Martial Arts" stick:

http://www.nihonzashi.com/japanese_weapons_tetsubo.aspx

(And before anyone says "you aren't going to carry that around"; it's true. But unless you are Jean Pierre Rampal, carrying a flute is totally lame too. In the real world, we will soon all be boiling down to canes, 3-inch folders and S&W 442 no-locks. Everything else is grist for the mill; making for one heckuva entertaining thread. Carry on with plastic flutes, cheap nightsticks and *very* expensive black rods, please! )

 

[AStone]

Oh, man. Love those ^ clubs.

Now that's what I want by the bed,
or in the tent next to the revolver.

{Adds an 18" to wish list.}

I agree with Owen in theory and practice. But still, I'd rather be carrying a hollow plastic flute than stuck with open hands only.

Will a flute become my primary? Not a chance; not even a tertiary or quaternary. It's still a cool idea, especially for people who actually play flute. Great for averting muggings outside the symphony at the side entrance.

 

[JimStC]

Here is an interesting site. Custom Escrima sticks in oak, hickory or maple. Lengths: 22", 24", 26" 28". Be advised, their Ebay prices are $10 less expensive.

http://www.bukiyuushuu.com/escrima_sticks.html
Jim

 

[hso]

Maybe somebody makes them out of sufficiently thick steel.

I've been looking an iron flute for a couple of years and I can't find any. Let me know if you find anything equivalent (iron or steel).

 

[hso]

An improper weapon is far better than no weapon.

Gotta agree with Owen that anything is not always better than nothing. Impact tools have to have enough strength to be of use. That said, if you know what the limitations are of the self defense tool you have with you you can work knowing those limitations, but an improper/inadequate weapon is no substitute for a well made one and it is foolish to carry an improper one when you can carry a better one. Often you're better off fooling yourself by carrying the improper/inadequate whatsit in favor of something else or simply having the knowledge and training to use your hands/elbows/knees/feet.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Using a stick that is too light is sort of like substituting an open hand slap for a punch. It usually makes maters worse rather than ending the problem.

 

[JimStC]

After a less than good experience with CS I came across this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221072719996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

32" polypropylene "escrima" stick. At that length it could double for a cane.
Whoops, I used the c word in this thread. 30 lashes with a rattan stick!!

Jim

 

[geologist]

Another reason that rattan is used is because with age and stick on stick contact, it sags rather than breaks into projectiles. Thus it is safer for training. If you train stick on stick it is something to consider.

 

[Carl Levitian]

But the effectiveness of the weapon is as much a function of the operator as it is the weapon itself. Isn't that why you're supposed to practice?
__________________

That is the essence of the truth.

So many of you feel that a stick has to have weight enough for a good club, and you've painted yourself into a corner by putting blinders on as far as a number goes. The sad truth is, the hand bones take very little of an impact to break, and a hand with broken bones is not going to be holding a knife well enough to do you harm, or a fist to hurt you with. It's not what you hit with, it's what you hit, period. Even with heavy padded gloves, boxers with heavily taped hands still get broken fingers and hand bones. What do you think a high speed impact with a piece of ash is going to do?

I spent too many years of my life as a city boy in Washington D.C., to include some not so nice neighborhoods. I spent time on a police department, and I spent time in an improvised weapons class in the army. I regularly walk the streets of Baltimore and New York city. I've seen what works. A 14 inch piece of one inch broom handle can disable you. It all depends on what the operator of the stick is going after. The mind set is way more important than the tool, and software is better than hardware.

I'll even make the following offer to a doubter. Give me a ring, and I'll give you a magic marker. You sign a waver that I'm not responsible for your injuries, and I'll put up one thousand dollars if you can get me with the marker. Thats one thousand dollars cash, in hundreds. On the table before we start, and I'll count it in front of you. All you have to do is mark me with the marker.

Take of your blinders and open up the closed minds. A stick is not just a club. It's a blocker, snap strike tool, thrust tool against very particular targets. A short fast stick can strike repeated blows to specific targets faster than you can defend, and in the end, you will be disabled. I don't care who you are, a hand with broken bones is out of action, and opens up the person for more strikes. And I'm not talking about trying to club someone with a heavy jacket or what they think may be padding. I'm talking about targeting hands, wrist, eye's, and throat. I don't care if he's on crack, if he can't hold a weapon or see you, he's going to have a hard time hurting you.

Some of you repeat the same old stuff thats plain wrong. Knife against a short light stick, the knife guy looses if the stick guy knows what he's doing.

 

[JimStC]

Carl,
Outstanding post!
Edit to add: THR has an incredible amount of collective wisdom. Thanks to THR for providing this venue to share knowledge.
Jim

 

[AStone]

Yup.

 

[sidheshooter]

Nice post, Carl.

I still think that there is a threshold where light is too light, and 7 oz for 28 inches crosses that line for me. My 16" airweight ASP weighs more than that at just over half the length, and that's a light stick, by many standards. You can break metacarpals with some luck and a solid hit with a surefire flashlight. You can also drop someone like a stone with a .22lr, but a greater margin of error in either case would make me more comfortable, if need arose.

(I did post the kanabo as a tongue-in-cheek effort; I'm not disagreeing with you in principle about light and fast winning the day; your earlier posts articulated this well).

 

[AStone]

For a weighty 15" stick,
I like my Ontario SP-53.

Yeah, I know it's got that edge on one side,
and that makes it impractical to carry in town,
but at 20+ oz, front-loaded, it packs a whammy,
so it sits by my bed (18" wood under pillow)
and it's my favorite camp stick.

It also cuts sticks for the fire.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Carl's post was excellent (as usual!).

I'd rather have a heavier stick, but a light stick can be effective in the right hands.

Used for thrusting, or like a rifle/bayonet, even a light stick can have your full body weight behind it. I've worked with stick and heavy bag, and a light rattan stick could move that bag when used properly.

My father was one of the managers of the Mark Hopkins Hotel (on Nob Hill in San Francisco). One day he brought home some pieces of plumbing pipe. It was solid brass! It was some of the original plumbing of the hotel. He used it to make wind chimes for friends of the family. I used a short piece to make the nasal and eyebrows on the helm I still have.

How I wish I could have that pipe! It was the right diameter for flutes and would have made some very unique objects!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[hso]

Carl,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the weight of a good club", but you use it as if to imply that heavy is the same as weight. They're not. I don't agree with Owen's fixed number for a minimum weight for a 12"-28" stick, but I do agree that you can go too light. A rattan escrima stick is as light as I'd expect anyone to use in SD because you loose the momentum to break bones larger than the hand with anything lighter in anything other than a hammer strike. You begin to sacrifice breaking techniques that are available at slightly heavier weights and sacrificing gross impact techniques and limiting yourself to the more complex manipulation techniques is never a good idea if you don't have to.

I like the punyo of FMA stick grip vs. the Chinese grip on a short stick because it gives me a lot of passing, trapping, hammering options so I like a stick just a bit longer than the sticks I've used with my Sifu (and just about convinced him that it is better too). In that case "longer" doesn't mean adding a ft to the length, but those 4 inches makes a big difference in what can be done.

Same with weight. A little more can mean a lot more effectiveness, but a little less can loose a lot as well. You don't have to carry a 28" lead pipe, but a pice of PVC isn't your goal either. Somewhere between those extremes is the ideal for the individual for simple breaking and complex manipulation techniques.

 

[michaelbsc]

Isn't the most important weapon supposed to be situational awareness to avoid the need for the weapon in the first place. The best possible weapon is a good chatter to de-escalate the situation.

I'm certainly not saying that I think a plastic flute is a good substitute for a double stack clip in a gun fight. But you sure aren't going to get a Browning Hi Power on an airplane these days.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Carl,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the weight of a good club", but you use it as if to imply that heavy is the same as weight. They're not. I don't agree with Owen's fixed number for a minimum weight for a 12"-28" stick, but I do agree that you can go too light. A rattan escrima stick is as light as I'd expect anyone to use in SD because you loose the momentum to break bones larger than the hand with anything lighter in anything other than a hammer strike. You begin to sacrifice breaking techniques that are available at slightly heavier weights and sacrificing gross impact techniques and limiting yourself to the more complex manipulation techniques is never a good idea if you don't have to.

I like the punyo of FMA stick grip vs. the Chines grip on a short stick because it gives me a lot of passing, trapping, hammering options so I like a stick just a bit longer than the sticks I've used with my Sifu (and just about convinced him that it is better too). In that case "longer" doesn't mean adding a ft to the length, but those 4 inches makes a big difference in what can be done.

Same with weight. A little more can mean a lot more effectiveness, but a little less can loose a lot as well. You don't have to carry a 28" lead pipe, but a pice of PVC isn't your goal either. Somewhere between those extremes is the ideal for the individual for simple breaking and complex manipulation techniques.
__________________

Totally agree with that. I don't use rattan or bamboo or any other light weight asian stuff. But a 14 inch stick in hickory, hornbeam, ash, locust, is enough to break bones in the meats I've scavenged from the dumpster in back of safeway. I've used short sticks on raw beef and pork ribs, chickens and with some short snap strikes had enough broken bones in the meat to convince me that he impact goes deep enough to do real damage. I've got a couple of short sticks made from left over hornbeam walking stick projects that seem to be nigh on unbreakable.

I do think there is something to the training aspect of rattan that it is used for safety in training. If I'm out on the street, I want good old American hardwood.

Carl.

 

[hso]

Yep, you want to not be there to avoid the self defense situation, get out of there before it gets risky, calm the situation if you've had it get risky (in that order) before you ever get to the point of having to physically defend yourself. It's a given in all our discussions that avoiding a fight is the best way to stay safe.

The airplane self defense idea isn't much of a concern since those situations occur so much more rarely than street encounters. ASP and other collapsible batons are a portability/concealability compromise on length/weight/rigidity on a fixed stick. The flute is a similar compromise in that it is portable and hides in plain sight, but it compromises weight and durability to do it being tubing instead of a solid rod. Everything is a compromise, though. Too obviously a weapon, too heavy, too long, too light, too weak. Like "cheap, quick, good (pick any two)" nothing's 100% perfect.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This debate about light vs. heavy sticks is starting to sound like another familiar argument common to gun forums.

Light sticks are like light caliber bullets. The work fine as long as you are able to place a shot somewhere vital. In fact a buddy killed a nice 8 point buck with a .22 Magnum last year. Long story short, he was setting up to hunt groundhogs off a sandbag rest when a nice big buck wandered up. He placed the crosshairs of his 12 power varmint scope right in the bucks ear and squeezed off a shot. The buck dropped without so much as a twitch. Had he been using a .300 Magnum, a solid hit anywhere to the chest cavity, shoulder or neck would have probably done the job. Bigger more powerful calibers give you a little more leeway in shot placement.

The debate between light and heavy sticks is really no different. Sure, a light stick is adequate for the small delicate bones of the hand and wrist but a heavier stick will also smash the bones in the meaty part of the forearm. This gives you a much broader target area. No doubt a well-placed shot to the throat or eyes even with something as light as a car antenna will take the fight out of anyone. Make the weapon a steel pipe and you can land it ANYWHERE on the head or neck and the results will be the same. Light weight sticks are faster but they require more accurate shot placement. Heavy sticks have lots of momentum and transfer energy deep into the target.

 

[hso]

But a 14 inch stick in hickory, hornbeam, ash, locust, is enough to break bones

Ok

Those materials have the density to provide a useful weight.