Short Sword?

[Madcap_Magician]

The Ontario machete is fantastic. Light and quick. Common weapon of attack and defense all throughout Central and South America. $15-30.

If you want a sweet version, try to hunt down one of Bark River Knife and Tool's custom Ontario machetes. They rehandle them with G10 or micarta, shorten the blade to 14", and convex grind the edge. About $120.

Other short swords would include the Busse (and Swamp Rat and Scrapyard Knives, all the same thing to me) Gladius or Wakizashi models. Also tons more expensive. $500-1000.

The Hanwei Tactical Wakizashi is supposed to be pretty decent. I've heard the edge from the factory is not fantastic. But they heat treat well and the blades are good 5160, so...

 

[zhyla]

I'm not into world-ending prepper stuff but I do keep a machete in my car. As does a friend of mine. Some guy went all road ragy on him, stopped his car in the middle of the freeway, and came walking back to start something with my friend. He got back in his car when my friend produced his machete, thankfully.

Machetes aren't the ideal sword from a fighting perspective, but they're cheap. If I were a prepper I'd rather have 10 machetes than one nice sword.

 

[AStone]

Interesting suggestions here. Will definitely check out the potentials.

 

[AStone]

Pay particular attention to the long sword
that splits a man in half during the first castle battle.

You do realize that was a movie, right?

No! Really? That was a movie?!

And I thought sure I was there in the thick of it.
Wow. How could I have been so fooled?

Archeology digs have failed to turn up too many solders split in half by broadswords.

Of course, I overstated the case.

The actor (stunt man treated by special effects) was only split substantially down from the top of his shoulder to roughly the top of his small intestine, not fully "in half".

So let's grant that it was a movie, and that producers/directors are going to take poetic license where they can.

I still suspect that a sword that large (5') and heavy, if sufficiently sharp, could produce something close to that wound when swung two handed from above like an ax splitting wood. At least a large blade could penetrate significantly deep into a torso.

Of course, short swords could not, so probably a moot point.

Still an interesting question: how much wound could a long sword produce?

 

[JTW Jr.]

how about this:

http://www.agrussell.com/browning-crowell-and-barker-competition-knife/p/BRW-322580/

 

[Cosmoline]

Still an interesting question: how much wound could a long sword produce?

It would be tough to do the cleave illustrated there. Very tough. That's more like explosive shrapnel or a high speed car accident. Regardless of the weight or sharpness of the blade, humans are not able to generate that kind of force. A limb is one thing, but a downward cleave through a torso would have to go through extensive barriers and the act would require so much force the blade would be bent and twisted like shrapnel. Also, skin when cut produces very slippery fluid. And the person being cut is not a fixed FX dummy. So the force downward will push the person back, the bones will tend to deflect the blade and it will be prone to slipping and skipping across the surface. As a result you're more likely to end up with a flayed skin, broken collar bones and nicked ribs from the strike than actually being cleaved in two.

A heavy axe would have a better chance, but there you'd have the real risk of getting the blade wedged into the ribs. To avoid that you'd go with a thicker profile axe head and a smaller edge to maximize the force delivered--in other words a felling axe or maul. Which is slow, takes lots of times to build up a strike for, and is easily deflected or avoided.

My understanding is that the heavy blades of the later middle ages were used both to cut and to crush. The advantage of weight didn't cleave bodies in twain, but did permit the use of the blade after the edge had been dulled or chipped. It could still brain you or break your bones even after several slashes. And they'd use the things in all sorts of inventive ways. Plus kicks to the groin, kicks to shields to drive them into the defender's face, shoves into the mud, kneecap smashes--that sort of thing. There was no ornate Bushido code.

Looking to recent events in Africa, wounds from machete hacks to live victims can take off digits and limbs, but on the head and upper torso they maul more than remove. The stomach would be the more obvious choice for a "torso cleave" attack, and since the blade would be encountering only soft tissue other than the spine, it could get a lot further. Though even then it would be difficult.

I think in the end the more effective stroke for defense is still going to be the thrust to vital organs. It's much faster and requires far less force to deliver a stopping blow.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Machetes aren't the ideal sword from a fighting perspective, but they're cheap.

Very true. Mostly because of the blade thickness. However, if you're not worried about people in armor or with heavier edged weapons, it'd probably work great.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The Romans figured out that the best use of the short sword was to stab with it. The African Zulu tribe under the leadership of Chaka developed very similar tactics some 2000 years later using short spears and cow hide shields.

My next edged weapon will be the Cold Steel Gladius.

 

[hso]

Short Sword
Long Sword
Broad Sword
Bastard Sword
2-handed Sword

Long Swords are a class of swords that are one handed swords that are lighter than the Broad Sword and longer than the Short Sword and are not suitable for cleaving.

 

[AStone]

Makes a reasonable hypothesis, Cosmo. Someone should set up a test of hypothesis on a hog carcus to see what happens with a 2-handed sword (thanks for the clarification, Hso).

I think in the end the more effective stroke for defense is still going to be the thrust to vital organs.

That's part of why I'm interested - at least conceptually - in a short sword. Ideally, in a pinch caused by social circumstances that we don't discuss on THR, I'd like a sharp edge on an 18" OAL sword so that the strikes I practice with my 18" stick would have a cutting effect, plus I get the benefit that a jab strike becomes a cutting thrust.

 

[AStone]

Closest I've found is this.

Impressive, but of course cutting a carcus in cross-section parallel to ribs
is different from cutting in longitudinal section across ribs, clavicle, etc.

But regardless, I'm not going to take up a big sword (long, bastard or 2-handed) but a short.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The major problem with long two handed swords is that it takes a lot of room to swing them. This might not be a problem in the open terrain of the Scotish Highlands but in an urban enviroment it would. Especially indoors where the typical home or office cealing is only 8 feet high. Look at the fantasy movie picture a few posts above. Would you have enough room to make that swing in your house?

 

[AStone]

I agree, Owen. Which, again, is why I'm more interested in short swords.

 

[SOUTHPAW]

I have a Cold Steel Gladius machete in my SHTF gear. It's short/light enough to carry 24/7 and for a machete it's surprisingly sturdy. It would be an absolute last line for defense or for stealth only, both scenarios when firearms can not be used first. Other than that it would work pretty well as a machete to hack thru brush or cut small branches for firewood. (although my Fiskars Brush Axe is AMAZING at hacking even large branches)

 

[Gordon]

I have a different take on what a sword CAN do. Remember that the original Samurai swords were "proofed" by hacking either condemned or their bodies at the highest level of manufacture. I have seen original wood cuts showing 2 bodies stacked on each other and were cut in half just below the rib cage and above the hips. Also one proof was the diagonal cut next to the neck and down pretty dang far from the wood cut. Severed heads with one blow were almost nothing.
Now when I was about 40 years old and still strong as an ox and pretty fast I Bought one of those Himalayan Nepalese ceremonial bull beheading Khhukris maybe about 1985 from the back of Soldier of Fortune magazine, also a "issue" enlisted Khukri which I still have (actually I have the giant 30" long Khukri even after my kids beat with it 20 years!) . With the giant Kukri when I was high and tight it after a lengthy sharpening could easily sever a sheep or goats head from it's bodywith a mighty blow! I think those animal's necks are tougher than humans! My son tried to behead a goat a few years back with his Hanwei Katana (after 10 years of Kendo training ) and only got 3/4 way thru with one blow. I seen goats chopped up with the Mad Dog Saxon I now own and believe it could give a pretty deep (like thru the heart) diagonal cut from the collar bone down by a skilled practitioner. Now I have seen Busse AK 47s hacking on goats byt the same people and the Saxon cleaves much better- by design. It weighs one third or less than the giant Khukri which is best swung by a 270 pound pro linebacker type, so us medium size can handle it pretty quickly with it's two handed grip. Just my experience and $.02 FWIW. If the time comes to dispense justice to those who are selling us down the river in a "peoples court" , I am SURE the Saxon would cleanly remove a head .

 

[JShirley]

one proof was the diagonal cut next to the neck and down pretty dang

"Kesa giri". A very traditional Japanese strike, and one of my favorites. My now-deceased friend Byron cut almost all the way through a 200-lb pig using this strike, and a 16th century katana.

John

 

[hso]

ARMA in the U.S. and Art of Mars in Europe are organizations seriously keeping the Wester European combat traditions alive. These folks are very serious practitioners of the sword as a weapon. You can catch their videos on the net and find their schools scattered around.

I studied under Maestro Eddie Floyd in the Swordplay Alliance for a year and a half and if anyone really wants to learn about using the sword in the western tradition they'd be well served to find an ARMA or Swordplay Alliance group to work with.

FMA and Japanese large blade traditions are kept alive in schools across the U.S.

John's studied Japanese and I've studied SE Asian and Philippine and some Chinese sword.

There are groups and schools out there for people to work with.

 

[Gordon]

I'd like to see what simulated body hacking J SHIRLEY or HSO could do with this hated MD Saxon. Maybe a future play date in a pork packing chiller room?

 

[JShirley]

Well, I think the pic links no longer work, but I did a lot of testing using green bamboo wrapped in matting to simulate tissue and bone when I tested the Razor belt sword some years ago.

The Paul Chen katana made a 1 7/8" cut in green bamboo which was wrapped in matting and then clothing. Any unarmored limb hit would be unusable, at best.

 

[OH_Spartan]

The best demonstrations of edged weapon ballistics that I have seen is Deadliest Warrior on the History Channel. They use pig carcasses, ballistic gel, load cells, etc to measure the effects of everything from bowie knives to swords from antiquity.

I don't think a current season is playing, but perhaps there are replays on history.com or DVD's available @ library, amazon/ebay, etc.

 

[hso]

Deadliest Warrior did provide some great demonstrations of the effectiveness of weapons before the age of firearms. I'd like to have a compilation of just the non firearms "tests" for reference.

 

[Lee D]

i wouldnt call this a short sword...rather a perfect sized knife for heavy camp duties. excuse the pistol, the pic was for another forum, but the LCP does give you a size comparison. LOL
dont get me wrong, it would definitely be a serious blade to have to deal with if wielded properly, but thats not why i bought it at all.



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[armoredman]

Buck says the Hoodlum isn't available any more. I looked up the Gladius machete, the blade thickness is 2.8 mm. Just a machete, that's all.
Wonder what fits a budget that would work well?

 

[JShirley]

I would be hesistant to buy something that screams "weapon", when something else that doesn't look like it was made to kill people- or for mall commandos- is the same price, and is just as effective.

A machete fits easily into a "BII" bag for your car, along with a small shovel, pry bar, and come-along. Not only makes everything else look more legitimate, but with a blanket and a gallon of water, you're a lot more prepared, as well.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Available?

Buck says the Hoodlum isn't available any more. I looked up the Gladius machete, the blade thickness is 2.8 mm. Just a machete, that's all.
Wonder what fits a budget that would work well?

Actually, the Hoodlum is still available (and at better street prices) through a number of retailers.

The note on the Buck Knives site indicates that it's not currently available, but omits the clarification that it's not currently available from the factory. I was in the factory store last week and asked about new models and stock levels on the shelves there. The gals told me that at this time of year all their production was earmarked for retailers to fulfill first quarter ordering. Generally a certain amount of production will become available both internally and for online ordering within the next couple of months.

Amazon shows it in stock at $126.15 (nice price).

Cabela's shows it in stock for $210.99 (less impressive).

Smoky Mountain Knife Works shows it in stock for $169.99 (not bad, not great).

I'm sure there are other places that carry it as well. Like Knives Plus and Blade Matrix.