Shotgun for youth competitive trap shooting?

[momoftwotrapshooters]

Hi,

I am looking for some advice from you seasoned shooters and gun experts out there. I am looking for a shotgun to be used for competitive trap shooting. It is for my son, who is 11, and is left-handed and my daughter, who is 13, and is right-handed to share. (I think) I am looking for 20 gauge, over and under, no palm swell, adjustable comb, Browning Citori, Beretta or the like . . . Recoil reduction is also a concern. Any ideas? Thanks . . .

momoftwotrapshooters

 

[Steve C]

Trap is shot almost exclusively with 12 ga with full chokes. Smaller ga shotguns are just a handicap. To shoot trap get them a trap gun, one that is set up for the game. Most trap is shot at single birds and you get one shot. With over/unders only one barrlel is loaded. Unless they're planning on shooting registered matches where there is a doubles event a single shot trap gun like the Browning BT99 would be most adaptable to either right or left hand shooter. If money is an issue and it usually is, a Remington 870 trap is a fine shotgun for trap shooting and about as inexpensive as you can get with trap guns.

I've seen many a young shooter learn using dad's gun. For a smaller kid the lenght of the stock is somewhat of a handicap and trap stocks are usually a bit longer than a hunting stock. An adjustable stock would work well if it reduces the length enough. There are a couple ways to go about shortening the stock for kids. One is to have the stock cut and the recoil pad installed, as the kids get older, spacers can then be added to increase the length. Its a crying shame to do this to an expensive stock on a $2K shotgun though. The next option is to buy a fully adjustable stock and the last option is to find a cheap plain stock or take off and have it reduced to kids length to be replaced with the standard stock as the shooter grows.

As for recoil, they need to learn how to handle it. Trap loads are not heavy and the gun is usually a heavy gun so recoil generated isn't that much. Kids need to mount the gun properly and hold it snug to avoid the recoil hit, if done right its just a push. Get them a good shooting vest with recoil pad and pockets for loaded and spent shells.

 

[ArmedBear]

The 3901 Target RL deserves consideration.

The same gun probably won't fit both shooters, but this one is adjustable for LOP, and has an adjustable comb so it can be tweaked left and right, up and down. If you can mark it somehow, you could probably adjust it pretty quickly between shooters.

The gas-operated semiauto absorbs much of the recoil, and will allow the use of standard 12 Gauge trap loads.

It's not an O/U, but it should work well.

https://www.berettausa.com/e2wProdu...k=2100000084:3100001360:3100001381:4100001525

 

[bigalexe]

Buy your kids their own guns. I could write an essay why but I'm going to restrain myself.

Secondly, you want to get your kids into shooting that's great. If you want to get your kids into competitive shooting thats great to but to me it sounds like they are brand new and may not even know if they want to go to serious competition. I know too many instances of people pushing their kids into sports, mostly because "If we get Johnny into football then we can make him the best QB Ever and he can get a scholarship." Long story short when Johnny gets older and dislikes football; mommy and daddy continue to force him into it.

 

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, bigalexe is right. I jumped the gun.

First, what do you mean, "competitive"?

 

[3pairs12]

My first trap gun was a Beretta A302 special trap. Ver forgiving on a young shoulder, light enough to swing. I still have 20 years later.

 

[momoftwotrapshooters]

They are involved in a school sponsored trap shooting program . . . they shoot multiple rounds and are scored as a team and compete with other teams. No worries about mom and dad pushing them into it . . . our kids actually have gotten us excited and involved in it, not the other way around! With that having been said, we are new to the world of trap shooting and appreciate all the advice you have to give! Thanks . . .

 

[ArmedBear]

First questions, then.

Does the program require a break-action gun (O/U or a single-shot like a BT-99)?

What have your kids tried, and liked?

Where is the program, if you don't mind saying (please don't answer if you don't want to; I was on the board of a club that had such a program, and I'm curious)?

 

[momoftwotrapshooters]

No break action, although they do prefer a single shot. My kids have actually been shooting field shotguns, which have done well with. The recoil is just a bit hard, which tends to take it's toll over many rounds. We are in a very exciting, well run program in Arkansas!

 

[bigalexe]

Now that I know the situation I'm comfortable summarizing why I suggest getting their own guns. I do understand why you want to buy them one gun, but Im going to lay it out how I feel about my gun, and what I probably would have thought when I was 11 and sharing a gun.

While they do compete as a team, you are dealing with a boy and girl who are opposite sided (left/right) and most likely different body sizes. I sense in the years to come their differences in body will increase more and more. So the same gun isn't going to fit both of them. A simple thing to point out is on many guns the crossbolt left handed safeties are opposite.

Also being an eleven year old boy (there's on in all of us) there's something about owning "my gun" which is "my responsibility." If you share a gun I see your kids fighting over who was supposed to clean it LAST time. If you own your own gun you develop a relationship and responsibility for handling and maintaining it.

Lastly shooting trap is a gateway to bird hunting. In many situations people use the same gun for trap and hunting due to economic reasons. If your children want to hunt together with mom or dad, its going to be rather akward walking afield trading off on whose turn it is.

Ok for recommendations: a simple pump gun is a great starter IMO, you can fit it with a variety of barrels and do many things with it. With a pump you can load rounds individually quite easily (well with any shotgun you can) and another safety thing for kids is that the gun wont re-chamber unless YOU make, thus cutting the risk of an N.D. that may happen with a semi-auto in the hands of a kid, or even an adult for that matter. Also a pump gun is very easy to completely strip and clean as opposed to some semi-auto guns. I agree also with the idea of a break-action but you stated they recoil too hard, also just last night I watched someone ND a break-gun by closing it with their finger on the trigger.

Understand when I talk about safety I'm not trying to think what ALL kids do, and even some absent minded adults do. I'm also trying to setup a situation where your kids feel ownership and responsibility for the firearm which is very important for anyone who owns a gun. Honestly I think the question being asked (or that should be) here isn't "What gun will make my kids good trap shooters?" but instead "What is a good first shotgun for kids 11 and 13 that can be used in a trap competition?"

Specifically Mossberg Super Bantam 500, not a bad kick, light gun, youth size but can grow with the person. Number of accessories fitting the Mossberg 500 series is astronomical which means the same gun can be used for just about anything you want. Also I would say unless the competition is short range (or somehow designed for 20 gauge) go with a 12-gauge if at all possible, using a 20 gauge in a competition that allows a 12 is just handicapping yourself. Anyone can shoot 12, its a matter of learning to hold it right and if you don't believe me I'll direct you to my other thread and linked youtube video.

 

[ArmedBear]

Sorry about the jargon. Let me start over.

Break-action means any shotgun that opens on a hinge and is loaded by putting the shells directly into the rear of the barrels:

Empty

Loaded


They are favored by many ranges for safety reasons, because they can be carried open, so that they cannot be fired and everyone around can tell that the gun is empty. International competitions, hunting dog tests, etc. require them for that reason. American Trap doesn't require them.



Break-actions can be over/unders, side-by-sides and single shots.

Probably the most common break-action single-shot trap gun is the Browning BT-99, and it is available in a smaller size, the Micro.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=009B&catalog_=B

They're not cheap, but in the world of competition shotguns, they're not on the high end by any means...

However, they only fire one shot. They don't work for "doubles." That might be okay; if the school team never shoots doubles (two targets come out at once), a single shot will work better than anything else.

One reason someone would recommend two different guns is that, most likely, the two shooters are different in size and other parameters. At their ages, they will not remain the same size and shape for long, either.

Shotguns are like golf clubs or skis, but perhaps with even more variables. How they fit, and how they feel when in use, matters.

That said, the plain old Remington 870 Express works great for me for American Trap... "Fit" doesn't necessarily mean "expensive."

It's just important to know that what fits someone at 11 might not at 12 or 13. Adjustable is good, and so is keeping the price down.

Trap is a 12 Gauge game. I don't think there are any Trap guns in any other gauge. The good news is that not all 12 Gauge ammunition kicks very hard. There is "low recoil" ammo available, and it's not hard to load your own (your kids can do it for themselves).

 

[ArmedBear]

This is the other end of the price spectrum:

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/toppertrap.asp

This gun is light, for a trap gun, though. That means more felt recoil. The heavier a gun is, the less you feel the kick -- but an 11-year-old might have a hard time holding up a really heavy, long trap gun. There's a balance to be struck.

Another way to attenuate recoil is to shoot a gas-operated semiautomatic shotgun. The mechanism inside the gun slides back when the gun fires, and the moving weight really reduces felt recoil a great deal. For American Trap, you just keep the gun unloaded and drop one shell in before you call "pull". You don't really use it as a semiauto; you just take advantage of the recoil reduction it offers.

The 3901RL above is a gas-operated semiauto, and it doesn't kick very hard at all, even with standard loads.

 

[moosehunt]

12 gauge, BT-99 (1 for each) properly fitted (by a professional). You don't have to buy a new one, there is a very large used market whereby considerable money can be saved compared with a new one. I know that a BT99 precludes doubles, but that is probably just fine for the first year or two. At that time if they want to add doubles, it will be time to trade off the BT-99's. A BT-99 is the perfect introductory trap gun. The idea of hunting with the trap gun is not a good one. Bird guns aren't good trap guns, and while trap guns generally aren't good for hunting, even more significant is that many trap guns don't have a safety. Someone said trap is shot with full chokes. Wrong. Most people shoot singles with Improved modified or Modified. When they start getting some significant yardage in handicap, i.e. 24 or 25 yard line, full does come into play, though many a shooter still uses Improved modified at 27 yards. Also better get a reloader! Trap shooting generally means about 200 shells per week if one is just toying with it--not even real serious yet!

 

[ArmedBear]

Lastly shooting trap is a gateway to bird hunting. In many situations people use the same gun for trap and hunting due to economic reasons. If your children want to hunt together with mom or dad, its going to be rather akward walking afield trading off on whose turn it is.

One more note... A single-shot American Trap gun is useless for anything else, including Skeet and hunting. I sold my trap single, and bought a general-purpose O/U, and I more or less quit shooting trap because I wanted to build other skills and train my puppy. Yesterday, I shot the first round of American Trap I've shot in a long time. Broke 25/25 from the 22 yard line, with my regular "field" O/U. I'm not a huge believer in ultra-specialized American Trap guns, but others will differ.

many a shooter still uses Improved modified at 27 yards.

I accidentally shot 27 yard handicap with an Improved Cylinder in my gun. The targets still broke, just not into dust -- when I hit them, of course. Sadly, the things don't break themselves until they hit dirt.

 

[oneounceload]

First things first - for recoil management - have them use LIGHT 1oz or less target loads, not the 1-1/8 stuff from wally world. Second, unless they are exactly the same size, one gun is NOT going to fit them well, and fit is everything for success in shooting trap - that gun has to be a literal extension of their arm so they only focus on one thing - the target - Better to get two used well-made trap guns and have them fitted, than one new one to share.....YMMV

 

[Younggunner]

Well how about this... Go to mcbridesguns.com and look at the stoeger guns in the online shopping section. I believe they make an o/u shotgun combo that comes with a 12 gauge double barrel and a 20 gauge barrel... I think that would work for both of them, as they get older the can use the 12 gauge more often thanthe 20 gauge.

 

[oneounceload]

Gauge of the barrels doesn't have anything to do with having a gun that fits - Stock dimensions, weight and swing momentum will determine how the kids shoot. Heavy gun that fits properly plus light target loads equals lowest possible recoil and better scores.

Whether that gun is an O/U, trap single shot, SxS, or auto - it applies across the board

 

[ArmedBear]

Heavy gun that fits properly plus light target loads equals lowest possible recoil and better scores.

True, but with one caveat. I'm sure you've seen kids and small women at the trap range, leaning back while shooting, to balance the weight of a 9 lb. 34" trap gun someone handed them. THAT won't ever lead to better scores.

I'd say, "The heaviest gun that the shooter can comfortably and properly handle at the line", and keep the barrel length reasonable for the size of the shooter.

 

[oneounceload]

Tis what I meant, but you said it better!......

 

[bigalexe]

Im not sure if you've seen my other threads so here is a summary of my body frame: 5' 7", 84 lbs., Muscular Dystrophy. Yup, thats true and I'm guessing your 13 year old could probably beat me in an arm wrestling contest.

Personally I shoot 2 3/4" 7/8oz. 2 3/4 Dram shells in my 12 gauge when I can find them. If not I shoot 1 oz. 3 dram. For a small person this works just fine. As has been mentioned the shot loads can make a huge difference in recoil. Another thing is to see if you know anyone that does their own reloads, I know a few people around here that reload shells on the light side for personal preference.

If you buy the guns and want to take a little more kick out of them I'd suggest getting the forcing cone lengthened and porting in that order. If you would like more info PM me because I'll have to look who does it in AZ.

In my fully honest opinion I think ANYONE can shoot a 12-gauge, its a matter of fit, holding the gun properly, and picking the right load. Also your kids will appreciate it when they can hit targets further out than all their friends. On a side note the biggest gun i've shot is 30-30 lever action that is much more power than my shotgun. It's all in how you hold it.

 

[Cuzzin]

+1 on the Beretta 3901 Target RL - fits my short arm wife perfectly. Shoots a little flat (great on skeet) so you kinda have to cover the target in trap - but still, works just fine and no recoil with the lighter loads like 1 oz says.