Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

[Crusader103]

As a firearms instructor focusing on advanced level courses, I present roughly 20 open enrollment courses per year and another 10-20 private closed enrollment military and law enforcement courses.

In years past, I have filled as many as six open enrollment combat shotgun courses, maintaining a waiting list for many. Today, I had to cancel a scheduled combat shotgun course due to low course enrollment.

I cannot attribute the cause due to a poor choice of weekends (I am presenting two other courses this particular weekend and both are full with waiting lists) and dare I say it is not the instructor (most of my courses max out). Having spoken to some other instructors we have agreed that there has been a definite decline in defensive shotgun course interest.

I am interested to hear the thoughts of forum members on why that is the case. I will readily tell you that while shotgun enrollment has declined, carbine enrollment has increased.

You can probably guess where I stand, but do you believe that the shotgun is still a formbidable defensive weapon? Do you believe that it has lost its niche? What role do you see the shotgun filling in the future concerning defensive weaponcraft? I know the trends, but has the carbine completely replaced the shotgun? Should it?

I know I am an instructor but I am still nostalgic. I hate to see the shotgun being relegated to the occasional 3-gun match.

 

[ActionJax]

I have recently gained some facility in defensive use of the pistol (Sig P229), and looked to add a long gun. I chose a shotgun (Mossy 590A1) over a carbine for ONE SIMPLE reason.

NONE of our local indoor ranges allow 5.56 or any other rifle caliber. I'd be forced to use the VERY limited outdoor time available (ranges only open in the summer in Wisconsin), and be subject to the draconian rules there -- load ONE cartridge into the mag, fire, eject, load ONE cartridge into the mag .... Really only used for sighting in rifle scopes, et al.

Meanwhile, there are at least two indoor ranges which will let me shoot a 12 gauge to my heart's content (including slugs), plus I can go to the local clay range.

I know I will never get good at anything unless I practice.

Practice.

12g is plenty for Home Defense in my hands, and a slug will reach far enough, I reckon.

YMMV

P.S. -- I may have to come see you someday ......

 

[shiftyer1]

Maybe since the popularity of ar type rifles, shotguns are just out of style right now.

 

[Pacsd]

I think you are right when citing the interest in AR style/carbine/habdgun pieces as home defense. Mainly because of the aura they present. Nothing wrong in any choice of HD weaponary. However, I still prefer the shotgun as my choice. Even when I was a cop I found it easier to direct 9 pellets in a confined area than one little handgun round into a precise area of a target. Besides an intruder hearing a auto/pump shotgun being jacked has an unmistaken sound to it. Additionally, #4 hi-brass will take out any thing that is in my house with a simple point and shot under stressful situations of an armed intruder. Scatter guns for me.

 

[Crusader103]

Maybe since the popularity of ar type rifles, shotguns are just out of style right now.

Well, I can definitely agree with that. And don't get me wrong, I am very much a carbine fan. My only complaint is that the shotgun doesn't seem to get nearly the regard as it should anymore.

I still see the shotgun as a strong and viable choice as a defensive weapon. In the right hands, it is a very formidable weapon indeed. I believe that the versatility of the shotgun in terms of available loads (slugs, buckshot, and even less-lethal) makes it worthy of serious consideration. Indeed, at close to intermediate ranges, it is arguably one of the most sound choices in terms of achieving a decisive stop to a lethal situation.

 

[mr_goodbomb]

ARs are gross to me. I'll take a shotgun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The laws of physics haven't changed, .730 is still bigger than .223 and 437.5 grains (one ounce) is still heavier than 45 - 75 grains, even if 1600 FPS is less than 3200 FPS. No, nothing has changed to make shotguns any less formidable.

Perceptions may have changed, and fads may have changed... but reality persists.

When's your next shotgun class in the Fayetteville area?

lpl

 

[Axel Larson]

I think part of it is that home defense rifles have become cheaper and the poor mans gun used to be a pump shotgun. That being said I chose a Benelli super nova tactical over a siaga in 7.62 by 39 because I like shotguns.

 

[Nushif]

I'd say they are ... but most people probably pick them up, figure they don't have to aim and don't take the course!
So I'd say in terms of showing how effective, useful or not it is, simply the attendance of a course is not a valid source of data. I have a baseball bat in my closet that I wouldn't hesitate to use for HD ... but I'm not playing Baseball to practice. You follow?

 

[mbt2001]

The shotgun is the most awesome and devestating close range man stopper ever invented. Nothing comes close to it. If it is losing it's cache it is most likely due to peoples desire to carry a gun discreetly (CHL) and/or have a tactical carbine handy. I would think that in the minds of most regular folks the shotgun is somewhat obvious, whereas the black rifles require training to master.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

I took a shotgun class last weekend, and generally take about one a year. I usually take 10-11 pistol or carbine classes a year. For me I think we generally do shotgun less, because it tears the targets to shreds and we have to replace them. Shotguns also tear up shoulders so I don't think most people want to do a class any more often than that.

A shotgun is my go to gun for a bump in the night, but for shots across the living room a whole lot of practice is not required. I can't really envision any situation where I would have to shoot enough to have to reload the tube. I certainly cannot imagine gearing up for and walking into a situation like this. If I don't gear up for that situation, I won't have a bag of shells on my hip, or even a bunch of shells in a loose fitting pocket - If I don't have that all the shotgun training in the world will not get me very far.

If for some reason I have to rescue someone from the zombie apocalypse I'm taking an EBR with a dozen mags. I sure ain't trying to pop in a slug to get the guy crouching behind cover at 40 yds.

I'd take more shotgun classes if that's what were on offer, however I'd rather dedicate the bulk of my training time to pistol and rifle.

 

[Crusader103]

When's your next shotgun class in the Fayetteville area?

For open enrollment, I don't currently have another one scheduled. I continue to present the shotgun curriculum in military/law enforcement closed enrollment courses, but personally I've just seen a falling off for general enrollment.

The pistol/carbine courses... now those have seen a lot of interest as of late.

 

[catnphx]

The two main weapons we use for HD are the Mossy 590A1 and M&P 9mm.

If I could choose only one and they were of equal distance, I'd grab my SG. I love that gun and the load I use (Federal Personal Defense 00 with FliteControl Wad) is perfect for my HD situation.

I wouldn't mind a SG class but my aging shoulder would take a beating in a multiple day SG class. It's possible that the younger kids are focused on all the cool handguns and carbines that are available today and the older guys can't take the beating that a SG class would provide.

 

[toivo]

Maybe since the popularity of ar type rifles, shotguns are just out of style right now.

Bingo! We have a winner. Carbines are the flavor of the month (or year), especially AR-style carbines. Nothing wrong with learning all kinds of weapons platforms, but I see the carbine as more of a combat weapon than a home defense weapon. EOTWAWKI? Grab your carbine. Bump in the night? IMO, a combination of shotgun and handgun is the way to go.

 

[evan price]

No longer formidable?

Ask yourself this- if, when you are caught breaking into a house, you come face to face with an angry homeowner with a 12-guage double barrelled coach gun, are you going to think it ISN'T formidable?

That muzzle looks like the twin-tunnels to Hell itself.

Let's leave off the tired old internet discussion about the racking of a 12-guage slide being as good a deterrant as a large barking dog for a moment.

Which is going to have the most visual impact- a 38 revolver, or a 12-guage pump riot gun?

A couple of 38 caliber holes might be survivable. A chest full of 00 buckshot usually isn't.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

A couple of 38 caliber holes might be survivable. A chest full of 00 buckshot usually isn't.

Irony?


00 Buck is roughly 9mm, same as 38 special.

 

[Sam1911]

Josh,

When I trained last year with some law enforcement officers in a private class, the officers of one agency told me that their department had mothballed a very large collection of 870s because the officers overwhelmingly refused to use them and protested vehemently being forced to qualify with "those cannons."

This was a very urban group from the NY metropolis area and the majority of their officers had no firearms experience outside of their police training. The large bore size and stouter recoil was extremely intimidating compared to that of the 5.56 carbines they were issued and which now was their department's only fielded long-arm.

I don't know how much of that is verifiable fact and how much just range-talk hyperbole, but I can certainly believe that such perceptions do exist. Small caliber carbines are much more "accessible" and user-friendly to a neophyte without the benefit of a hunting background and/or good training.

 

[Al Thompson]

Irony?

Not really, at HD distances most shotguns/loads are still throwing tight patterns. Nine .36 calibers holes in a patch the size of a paperback book is an order of magnitude more effective than two .36 caliber holes. In addition, more precise placement is much easier with a long gun.

Jscott, IMHO, the AR rise in popularity has resulted in a larger number of folks getting exposed to the light recoil, ease of manipulation and higher capacity advantages of the AR. Compare that to the shotguns main disadvantages (recoil and low capacity) and I think that folks are simply gravitating to the easier platform.

Another trend around here is that the local LE are trading in their shotguns for ARs, so a lot of the new LEOs may never actually shoot a shotgun.

 

[earlthegoat2]

the officers overwhelmingly refused to use them and protested vehemently being forced to qualify with "those cannons."

Im not surprised. The quality of persons in LE has been dwindling IMO from days gone by as hiring practices have evolved poorly. The new age of LE has said shotguns kick too hard and are of no tactical importance in police work.

 

[Kendal Black]

The widespread perception nowadays is a .223 can be deployed without huge concerns about overpenetration and danger radius, if the right bullets are chosen. At one time the use of a centerfire rifle as a general purpose defense arm, in built up areas, would have been viewed generally with horror.

People see the cops with AR's and figure the cops must know what they are doing. The idea now seems to be that a fragile high speed bullet is okay to shoot off in town.

A key argument in favor of the shotgun has always been its limited danger radius compared to the rifle. If this argument is no longer persuasive, the shotgun loses a key element in the rationale behind using it.

I'm still armed with the shotgun, due to long familiarity and being perhaps a bit set in my ways.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Shotguns are harder to train on.

They are unpleasant to shoot. At least not as pleasant as 500 .233 rifle rounds.

They're more expensive, too. I remember 100 12 gauge costing about 3 or 4 times as much as 100 .223 rounds cost.

The AR carbine is just an easier platform to train on, and much more comfortable to shoot in a class.

 

[W.E.G.]

Shotgun no longer a formidable defensive weapon?

"No longer formidable" for what purpose?
Fallujah?


I've always thought the the shotgun was less preferable as a DEFENSIVE weapon, simply because a handgun is the superior DEFENSIVE choice for 99.99% of non-military self-defense situations.


There are some situations where nothing short of an RPG-7 is really effective.
What are we talking about here?

 

[mljdeckard]

I think there is a perception that ARs are a lot sexier to the general public than shotguns. ARs are flying off the shelves, everyone wants their cool M-4gery, They are less punishing to shoot, their wife likes it better, there are a lot more gadgets, I think that what you are seeing is a result of the AR explosion.

Not only am I not giving up my shotgun as my primary home defense weapon, I am very much looking forward to getting a Kel-Tec KSG.

 

[mljdeckard]

And W.E.G, just remember, just because the handgun is what we have at the moment, and it's what gets used because of convenience, that doesn't make it a superior choice.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I don't think it has anything to do with no longer being formidable.


For most people AR's are just easier to learn on and shoot, less punishing, less expensive to feed, and more controllable.