Shotgun or lever action for bear

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Deploying and hitting the bear where it counts before he's on top of you is probably more of an issue than whether you are shooting a slug gun or a large bore carbine/rifle.

I posted this link before, it gives you an idea of what a large carnivore charging you looks like. Can you shoot and disable him fast enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc
 
Readyrod asked?

Jmr40, can a bolt gun be fired as fast as a lever action with practice? That would make choices easier.


If you are talking about rifle cartridges the answer is yes, a bolt rifle is just as fast for someone who has practiced.

The leverguns chambered in pistol cartridges have a much shorter lever throw and virtually no recoil and can be operated faster. Move up to a 45-70 with its heavier recoil and longer lever throw and I can shoot my bolt rifles just as fast.
 
For black bears, the .44 Mag carbine would be sufficient. For grizzlies in the Lower 48, it might even be fine. But I've ran in to a couple of them in NW MT and I know I would have preferred something larger than a .44 Mag if I had the option. This obviously applies even more so to the bigger Brownies they have in Canada and Alaska.

So if I am "loading for bear," I am probably going with a .375 H&H or bigger in a rifle. Possibly up into .458 Lott territory. Grizzlies are big, powerful, and deceptively explosive and quick. They fully deserve as much power you can bring to the shoulder.

If it was an option, I'd pack a Carl Gustov recoiless rifle.

Of your choices, I'd put an 18 inch IC barrel with some good ghost ring sights on my M870 12 gauge and run some 3 inch Magnum Brenneke rifled slugs through it. If I was going for a lever gun, it would be fully loaded .45-70/.450 Marlin, minimum, and not any of those cute little 300 gr deer loads either.
 
Here is the perfect gun.
18" Double Barreled Hammerless doubled trigger 12 Gauge with a Laser sight and a sling. Loaded with Slugs and sleeve of 00 and slugs.

Two 12 Gauge discharge at nearly the same time will kill anything in north America if the range is under 30 yards.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT A DEFENSE WEAPON IS TO HAVE IT WHEN YOU NEED IT.
 
My friend shot a record black bear up in Canada years ago with my old 30/06...he asked the owner an guide of the outfit what he liked using an thought was the best rifle for black bear....The guy told him he used a .12 ga. shotgun, an had even killed grizzly bear with it, thats all you need. I've heard of DNR guys carring .12 ga. also when in bear country out west.
 
I don't have the actual statistics, but the point has already been brought up that most people will never need a gun to defend against a human attacker, either. That doesn't keep many of us from keeping guns handy in case the situation arises.

Everybody that steps out onto a nature trail probably doesn't need to carry a gun for bears. This is true. And every women that walks across a dark parking lot at three in the morning probably doesn't need to be armed either. There are fewer rapists than women, and far fewer bears than people.

However, some people have a real concern with legitimate needs. In NW MT where I grew up, and still have family, there are plenty of black bears and cougars, as well as some of the only grizzlies in the Lower 48. Working trail crew for the Forest Service when I was in college, I had the opportunity to run in to a couple of them. As it was policy not to allow us to have firearms with us on the job, all we could do is hide behind the dude with the most readily accessible chainsaw. Nothing happened, the bear meandered off, apparently bored with his human invaders, as he certainly did not appear alarmed, nor did he display aggression or fear. He was 40 yards uphill, looked at us, and walked away. But the whole time I was in his presence, I was impressed by the aura of strength and dominance he conveyed and each and every one of us knew we were no longer at the top of the food chain. That is a disconcerting feeling, the first time you experience it. My dad and my grandpa have both had chronic black bear problems whereby the same, presumably, black bears will come into their respective yards and tear apart their orchards. Ever had a black bear break a tree in half falling out of it, 30 feet from your house? Ever had to dodge black bear doo-doo in your driveway, on the way to check the mail? If you've done these things, you probably live in bear country, and it probably make sense to take some precautionary measures to deal with.

Getting a gun may be one of these steps, but it isn't the only one, or even the first. Consulting your local Fish and Game Dept. to see where in your area bear activity is being reported, and where the historical highest bear concentration has been is one good step. While you're there, ask if they have a pamphlet or brochure on bears. The Forest Service Station I worked for made us all watch a video on bears and preventing and dealing with bear attacks. It was cheaply made and cheesy, but it was informative. The best thing you can do if you're really worried about bears in your area is become informed. Then you can decide whether you need to carry a firearm for protection. If you do go that route you should know that a) most states, and for sure the feds, all take their bear populations very seriously. If you kill one of them, you are going to have to prove you had to or face big fines (I've heard of fines of five to six figures being dealt out dealing with grizzlies) and possible prison time. And b) if you opted for a handgun, you're probably just fooling yourself. Once you've seen a grizzly, you know no handgun on earth is preferable to a rifle (or an airstrike). Black bears, maybe. But the number of handguns with enough power to deal with a grizzly are limited, as are the number of people skilled enough to use them. Plus, these "handguns" all weigh about five pounds, at which point, an extra couple of pounds of weight to gain the power and accuracy of a rifle is worth it. It is. Period. Plus, most people hit better under stress with a rifle. And if you don't think 600+ pounds of fur and teeth will induce a pucker factor, you're wrong. Heck, neither of the grizzlies I saw even turned to face me, but I was still plenty puckered. To even approach adequacy for a grizzly, you need a long gun.

Most of all, it is important to be sane and use common sense. I've ran into hundreds of black bears and a couple grizzlies. The end every single one of them presented to me was not the end with the teeth. Indeed, by the time a camera or a gun could be accessed, the vast majority of bear encounters in my experience would be limited to a picture of a bear's behind making tracks away from you. That doesn't mean a threat doesn't exist, just that it is grossly exaggerated.

And the only bear I've ever shot was a young black bear in a campground about a mile from family property that I shot in the rear with a load of 7 1/2 shot from about 40 yards, to get away from a dumpster it was rummaging through.

I've had the opportunity, but even hunting black bears doesn't really appeal to me. I hunt primarily for food and from what I've had of bear, it isn't particularly well suited for human consumption. Which is fine, as they seem to think the same way about us...
 
It depends where you are but in the wilderness in Canada bears are a constant occurence. I've seen them while backpacking, treeplanting, hitchhiking, getting out of a helicopter etc. They wander through your backyard at night. (Honey could you clean the bear poop when you take out the garbage?) Up north it's not a 1/10000 chance. Sure, if you make noise they run away, unless maybe they are a garbage dump bear or maybe they have cubs. And before you yell at them make sure they don't have cubs. It's happened twice to me, after I started yelling at the bear I saw the cubs, you have no idea the pucker factor when that happens. And it's really easy to get real close to them without either of you realizing it. At some point you just decide to carry a weapon. Which is what I've finally decided cause I want to take my kids into the wilderness when I go back to Canada. At this point I'm definitely thinking that the shotty is the way to go. It seems cheap and effective. The marine magnums look good but expensive so I may just go for something like an 870. Any suggestions?
 
Check Canadian rules about packing a gun in the brush I've "heard" it's not all that simple but I may be wrong.
 
I found this running "annual bear attacks in united states" in Google:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade
This is a list of known fatal bear attacks that occurred in North America by decade in reverse chronological order. In this list three species of bear are recognized: the Brown Bear (Ursus arctos), the American Black Bear (Ursus americanus) and the Polar Bear (Ursus maritimus). For purposes of this list, Brown Bear includes the Grizzly Bear (Ursus arctos horribilis), the Kodiak Bear and the Mexican Brown Bear. Between 1900 and 2003 there were about 52 recorded deaths due to black bears, 50 due to brown bears and 5 due to polar bears. The most recent data is the most reliable and complete, but does not necessarily include all fatal attacks that have occurred in North America. Prior to recent decades bear attacks were not well documented, particularly those which took place in isolated regions. As a result there were more attacks and fatalities than have been recorded as shown here, particularly in Canada and Alaska.

Among the interesting tidbits:

Ken Cates, May 25, 1999
Killed while hiking on the Funny River Trail near Soldotna, Alaska
Soldotna, Alaska

Soldotna is a city in Kenai Peninsula Borough, Alaska, Alaska, United States. At the 2000 United States Census the population was 3,759. According to 2005 Census Bureau estimates, the city had a population of 4,087....
. Investigators found bear blood at the scene, and determined that Cates fired two shots with his rifle scoring at least one hit. The bear was never found.

I know it's a .73 caliber projectile moving at over 1500 fps--shot placement still counts!

Franklin Devereaux, 4 Sept 1883
Killed in Cheboygan County, Michigan
Cheboygan County, Michigan

Cheboygan County is a Counties of the United States in the U.S. state of Michigan. As of the United States Census, 2000, the population was 26,448....
; victim was a hunter and trapper. Both bear and victim were found dead — the bear of a gunshot wound and the hunter from a blow to his head from the bear.

And even then, it's still, like, a bear, dude...
 
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It depends where you are but in the wilderness in Canada bears are a constant occurence. I've seen them while backpacking, treeplanting, hitchhiking, getting out of a helicopter etc. They wander through your backyard at night. (Honey could you clean the bear poop when you take out the garbage?) Up north it's not a 1/10000 chance. Sure, if you make noise they run away, unless maybe they are a garbage dump bear or maybe they have cubs. And before you yell at them make sure they don't have cubs. It's happened twice to me, after I started yelling at the bear I saw the cubs, you have no idea the pucker factor when that happens. And it's really easy to get real close to them without either of you realizing it. At some point you just decide to carry a weapon. Which is what I've finally decided cause I want to take my kids into the wilderness when I go back to Canada. At this point I'm definitely thinking that the shotty is the way to go. It seems cheap and effective. The marine magnums look good but expensive so I may just go for something like an 870. Any suggestions?

Where in Canada are you moving?

Like I said earlier, I used to carry a 870 with slugs when I worked in the bush in Northern and coastal BC. There were many days where I would pack my gun and then it got to be to much of a burden and I would leave it in camp and sure as **** that would be the day I would run into a bear:banghead: Then I would end up packing it the rest of the shift and not see a thing. I have over ten years experience working in remote areas in prime grizzly areas and I never had to use my shotgun on a bear.
That being said when I go fishing or hiking now I carry my Puma M92 .454, I wish I had this rifle when I was working in the bush. When I go hunting for bear I carry my tikka t3 .338wm ;)
 
KMD I'm currently planning on moving to Vancouver Island. I have friends in the Courtnay Cumberland Comox area and it looks real nice there. (I like the Smithers area too.) I don't even know if they have big bears on the island but I also want to do some big river trips, hiking trips, and get back into ocean kayaking. I'll definitely be going through some bear country. I too worked a good many years in the bush, mostly treeplanting but also a little geology, and did a lot of outdoor stuff, and saw a lot of bears. I never had a problem but some of the close calls could have gone the other way. I met a guy when working in the Todoggone (yea, two dog gone? Who comes up with these names?) who had the bite marks on his head to show for an encounter gone wrong. He carried a gun from then on and I bet he never left camp without it. It makes you think.
It's seriously beautiful country tho, the coast and the interior.
Oh and Mtmilitiaman and Mountie855, thanks for the thread, it was an interesting read.
 
If you are moving to the Island there are not many gizz there, the odd one will swim across from the mainland but they are rare. Big blacks and lots of cougars on the island, and not the good kind.

Courtney is very nice. I am up in the interior, just West of Prince George, right now and love it.
 
I was thinking about buying a 12 gauge 870 7 shot for carrying in the woods here in NW Montana. I would probably load it with slugs/0 buck shot. But, I really can't buy another gun for now. I think I might take my Mosin Nagant carbine out for fishing :what: It's so cheap that I don't care what I do to it.

I think doses of 7.62x54R will do the job on bears if need be.
 
One of my hunting buddies who spends time in Maine, Canada and upstate PA always goes to camp with a double barrel Ithaca 12 cut down to 18 inches with express sights put on and regulated to 50 yards. It may not be a 416 Rigby but in Bear Camp its mighty comforting with slugs and a sleeve of slugs and buckshot. Its kinda nostalgic too! I am looking for a gun to do the same thing with, but until then my Marlin 45-70 and T/C Encore Katahdin 450 Marlin will have to suffice:)
 
I would go with the lever action myself 45-70 is a hell of a round. I also use a Tikka T3 for hunting black bear ( 300 win mag though) and keep a redhawk 44 for backup. Hope to NEVER need the ruger.....
 
"...Regardless of what you carry, only a CNS shot will stop the bear soon enough for you to come out of the situation..."

if danger comes into camp, i know quite a few hunting guides in alaska who recommend hitting them in the front shoulder joint for an ~immediate~ stop. it is only a way to stop them, so the question of how humane it may/may not be doesn't come up. in a case like that saving your assets comes foremost.

it is easy to finish them off after they have dropped anchor.

gunnie
 
Gunnie, is a shoulder shot hard to make? How about a head shot? They have awfully big heads. Wouldn't it be easier?
I would go for a head shot, they run on four legs making a missed head shot a likely shoulder shot (or so I would think)...but I am definitely not the authority on bear. YMMV :)

...and they are not going to turn broadside to offer a good (easy) shoulder shot. ;)
 
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as per Mr. Oakley's advice, the head has some very thick bone in it. i have read of a bear that rangers had to put down due to very agressive behavior towards people. the autopsy concluded the two full loads of buck shot lodged in his skull were the cause. i'd guess that had to be from close range due to all the shot hitting his head.

the shoulder joint is an easier target than the soft points of the head. not that any particular point on a charging bear would be "easy". they move incredibly fast.

pertaining to the OP, only a 12ga slug or the 45/70 would be viable for this from his options, in my book. many smaller calibers have worked on bear. i would just want to put as much in my favor as i could. this should include pepper spray, when the wind is cooperating.

gunnie
 
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